Simony?

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Gib1704

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I recently found this great website about St Gemma, which has very interesting articles abut her holy and saintly life.

stgemmagalgani.com/

However, I also noticed that 2nd class (ex capsa - from the coffin , and ex- indumentis, from the clothing), as well as 3rd class relics, are being sold on the website. The website even has links to relics that it s selling on ebay. (Presumably by the webmaster - ebay.com/sch/glennd860/m…c&LH_Auction=1).

I’m not all too comfortable with this - is this not simony? Canon Law states:
  • Canon 1190 - It is strictly forbidden to sell sacred relics.
So, in effect, whether distributing relics for a donation or though eBay auctions, is this not wrong? The website is very informative, but this aspect of it makes me feel slightly uncomfortable.

Regards and God bless,
Gib1704
 
Two loopholes - (1) Selling the relic case (reliquary, theca, etc) which includes a relic, but not attaching the price to the relic itself; (2) Buying a relic for the sake of rescuing it from profanation (this does not excuse selling it).
 
There may be a loophole, but that does not make it right - one of the relics is being sold on eBay for $40 - this is more than just a mere “donation” in my view.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Two loopholes - (1) Selling the relic case (reliquary, theca, etc) which includes a relic, but not attaching the price to the relic itself; (2) Buying a relic for the sake of rescuing it from profanation (this does not excuse selling it).
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I agree with you that buying a relic to save it from profanation may not be an entirely negative thing (I know it’s still wrong to buy a relic, but perhaps this is the only means to a more positive end). Nonetheless, this site is clearly selling these, which - and I agree with you on this - is wrong.
 
bzkoss236 said:
A donation, by its definition, should be optional.
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I agree. The fact that one needs to give a “donation” to this site in order to obtain a relic makes it a sale - thus simony. If the relics were offered for free and then, out of your own free will, you wished to give an amount of money as a sign of gratitude, then that is a donation.
 
I have discussed this issue with priests in the past - they have agreed that it is wrong to sell relics in the manner that this site has done (one told me that its ok to send small donations in order to cover postage costs of sending a relic, but not actually for purchasing/selling them). I saw this site online and just wanted to raise awareness about the fact that what the webmaster is doing via selling relics is wrong.
 
Gib1704 said:
I have discussed this issue with priests in the past - they have agreed that it is wrong to sell relics in the manner that this site has done (one told me that its ok to send small donations in order to cover postage costs of sending a relic, but not actually for purchasing/selling them). I saw this site online and just wanted to raise awareness about the fact that what the webmaster is doing via selling relics is wrong.
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Yep, I agree that this is totally wrong. I’ve visited that webpage before and though it has lots of good info on St Gemma, the relic selling put me off a bit - I thought this was wrong.
 
I just posted a comment on the page re Canon Law and the selling of sacramentals like relics, maybe the seller is unaware of this rule.
 
The seller has this o n the page:

***Note concerning the relics being offered on this website: All of the relics being offered on this site are normally considered 3rd class relics, that is, they are items that have either touched the Saint, or were touched to her authentic 1st class relics. It is commonly held position in the Catholic Church throughout the world that the canon law forbidding the sale of relics does not apply to 3rd class relics, therefore this is why one often finds 3rd class relics (relic holy cards, relic medals, relic rosaries etc.) for sale at Catholic shrines and gift shops throughout the world. Therefore, since the “ex indumentis” (fragment of linen) and “ex capsa” (fragment of wood from the coffin) relics being offered on this website are normally considered 3rd class relics, they can legitimately be offered here as a fundraiser for this website and in addition a portion of the donations received from this website are sent to Saint Gemma’s monastery in Lucca, Italy to help support the monastery and the Passionist nuns who reside in religious community there. The primary purpose of all the religious items offered here is to be a means of grace and to help spread devotion to Saint Gemma."

But aren’t ex capsa and ex indumentis relics 2nd class?(correct me if I’m wrong). Moreover, as fas I know, the Canon Law does not differentiate between classes of relics, it just says that they cannot be sold.
 
Thompson5 said:
The seller has this o n the page:

***Note concerning the relics being offered on this website: All of the relics being offered on this site are normally considered 3rd class relics, that is, they are items that have either touched the Saint, or were touched to her authentic 1st class relics. It is commonly held position in the Catholic Church throughout the world that the canon law forbidding the sale of relics does not apply to 3rd class relics, therefore this is why one often finds 3rd class relics (relic holy cards, relic medals, relic rosaries etc.) for sale at Catholic shrines and gift shops throughout the world. Therefore, since the “ex indumentis” (fragment of linen) and “ex capsa” (fragment of wood from the coffin) relics being offered on this website are normally considered 3rd class relics, they can legitimately be offered here as a fundraiser for this website and in addition a portion of the donations received from this website are sent to Saint Gemma’s monastery in Lucca, Italy to help support the monastery and the Passionist nuns who reside in religious community there. The primary purpose of all the religious items offered here is to be a means of grace and to help spread devotion to Saint Gemma."

But aren’t ex capsa and ex indumentis relics 2nd class?(correct me if I’m wrong). Moreover, as fas I know, the Canon Law does not differentiate between classes of relics, it just says that they cannot be sold.
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Yes, you’re right. Ex capsa (from the casket) and ex indumentis (from the clothing) relics are Second Class relics. Also, you’re right about Canon Law - it just says that no relics can be sold.
 
Here’s a mall update:

The webmaster deleted my comments on the site about Canon Law and relics. He then added the following info:

“Thus it is reasonable to conclude that the canon law forbidding the sale of sacred relics does not pertain to the “ex capsa” fragments of St Gemma’s coffin being offered here for devotion of the faithful, and can legitimately be offered as a fundraiser for this website. In addition, a portion of the donations received from this website are sent to Saint Gemma’s monastery in Lucca, Italy, to help support the monastery and the Passionist nuns who reside in religious community there. The primary purpose of all the religious items offered here is to be a means of grace and to help spread devotion to Saint Gemma.”

How can Canon Law not apply to this? I feel that the seller knows this is wrong and is trying to justify the unjustifiable 🤷
 
He also added this to the site:

"***Note concerning the relics being offered on this website: Pertaining to relics, the Catholic Code of Canon Law (Canon 1190) states simply: “It is absolutely forbidden to sell sacred relics.”
So, the question then is, what exactly does the canon law intend when it refers to a “sacred relic”. Without a doubt this pertains to 1st class relics which are body parts of a Saint or Beata (ie.- hair, bones, etc…) and also 2nd class relics such as the Saints clothing and certain articles of devotion that were frequently used by a Saint (rosary, crucifix, etc).

However the “ex capsa” (fragment of coffin) relics being offered on this site would not reasonably be classified as a “sacred relic” because while the coffin obviously did come in contact with Saint Gemma, and the fragments have also been touched to her authentic 1st class relics, yet nevertheless a coffin in and of itself (or fragments of it) is not a “sacred relic” no more than the house that a Saint lived in, or the horse carriage that a Saint rode upon neither would be classified or considered a “sacred relic”. The Church does not keep or honor the homes of Saints as sacred relics, and neither for example is Blessed Pope John Paul II’s “pope mobile” a sacred relic, even though he rode in it an used it often, or again just because a Saint had at one time rested upon a certain bed, neither does this make it a relic. As we can see, obviously not everything a Saint touches is a relic, so there must be a reasonable distinction between what is, and what is not, a “sacred relic”. "

Again, the argument is flawed - things the saints have used (eg clothes, coffins tools etc) are sacred relics. Pieces of the bed which the Servent of God Mother Conception slept on are handed out by the Church as 2nd class relics, for example. The homes of Saints often become places of pilgrimage. Moreover, whether 1st, 2nd or 3 rd class, relics cannot be sold.
 
Thompson5 said:
He also added this to the site:

However the “ex capsa” (fragment of coffin) relics being offered on this site would not reasonably be classified as a “sacred relic” because while the coffin obviously did come in contact with Saint Gemma, and the fragments have also been touched to her authentic 1st class relics, yet nevertheless a coffin in and of itself (or fragments of it) is not a “sacred relic” no more than the house that a Saint lived in, or the horse carriage that a Saint rode upon neither would be classified or considered a “sacred relic”."

.
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:confused: How can an “ex capsa” relic not be sacred? Of course it is a “sacred” and second class relic. The site is great if you want to research the life of Saint Gemma, but the seller’s arguments or selling relics just don’t wash in my view 🤷
 
Thompson5 said:
Here’s a mall update:

The webmaster deleted my comments on the site about Canon Law and relics. He then added the following info:

“Thus it is reasonable to conclude that the canon law forbidding the sale of sacred relics does not pertain to the “ex capsa” fragments of St Gemma’s coffin being offered here for devotion of the faithful, and can legitimately be offered as a fundraiser for this website. In addition, a portion of the donations received from this website are sent to Saint Gemma’s monastery in Lucca, Italy, to help support the monastery and the Passionist nuns who reside in religious community there. The primary purpose of all the religious items offered here is to be a means of grace and to help spread devotion to Saint Gemma.”

How can Canon Law not apply to this? I feel that the seller knows this is wrong and is trying to justify the unjustifiable 🤷
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Whoops, should read “small update”, not “mall update”!😊
 
Gib1704 said:
:confused: How can an “ex capsa” relic not be sacred? Of course it is a “sacred” and second class relic. The site is great if you want to research the life of Saint Gemma, but the seller’s arguments or selling relics just don’t wash in my view 🤷
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I’m 100% with you on that one 👍
 
OH no, I’m in RCIA and I just donated to this site for a relic. I’m considering St. Gemma to be my patron saint. I hope I can be forgiven I didn’t see this forum until after.
 
I don’t think you need to worry, it is wrong to sell relics but if you gave a donation for them with a good intention, to aid in your devotion to God, then I wouldn’t say you have done anything wrong.
 
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