simple mass

[phrederik]

i’m interested in knowing what others think about returning to a simpler mass, one that the earliest catholics must have experienced. one where we gather to pray, hear the Word and share the Eucharist. not one with — gasp — singing, or costumes (i know, the vestments have meaning), or pomp and circumstance. i’m finding this takes away from worship. what do you think?

 

[OraLabora]

i’m interested in knowing what others think about returning to a simpler mass, one that the earliest catholics must have experienced. one where we gather to pray, hear the Word and share the Eucharist. not one with — gasp — singing, or costumes (i know, the vestments have meaning), or pomp and circumstance. i’m finding this takes away from worship. what do you think?

Sounds like 7 am weekday Mass at St. Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal. Simple vestments, no music, word, very brief homily, Eucharist, 25 minutes.

Seriously, I used to love 7 am Mass at the Oratory (alas with a job change I can no longer attend). The crypt church was very quiet before Mass; I could visit St. André’s tomb, pray Vigils from my breviary in silence, then Mass, very simple as noted above, and when leaving the Mass, I’d walk out to the day breaking over northern Montreal from mid-way up Mt. Royal.

On the other hand I also love a solemn Mass with Gregorian chant. In the Church, it doesn’t have to be either-or.

We are blessed with many memorials, feasts and solemnities, and the Missal and Breviary both indicate that it is desirable to have increasingly ornate services for each degree of importance of the day. This marking of the lives of the Saints, or the important moments in the economy of salvation, I believe is something that is important to retain.

Put it in human terms: if you’re having a simple weekday supper on a Friday (assuming you observe the Friday fast), the meal won’t be as elaborate as if you were celebrating your grandparents’ 50th wedding anniversary will it? Nor should the the Mass (and LOTH) be the same on each day.

Some days we celebrate the Eucharist in a very simple manner, some days, we have cause to really celebrate!. Can you imagine Easter or as just a simple Mass? We’re celebrating the joy of the Resurrection! That calls for a bit of pomp and ceremony no?

 

[I_Thirst]

i’m interested in knowing what others think about returning to a simpler mass, one that the earliest catholics must have experienced. one where we gather to pray, hear the Word and share the Eucharist. not one with — gasp — singing, or costumes (i know, the vestments have meaning), or pomp and circumstance. i’m finding this takes away from worship. what do you think?

Like OraLabora said, that sounds like Daily Mass.

As far as Sunday Mass or a Holy Day Mass, more singing (chanting!) and more vestments and more pomp and circumstance. More! I know that my parish isn’t really into this, for it takes more time and folks have to get to soccer games, go shopping, etc.

 

[Corki]

i’m interested in knowing what others think about returning to a simpler mass, one that the earliest catholics must have experienced. one where we gather to pray, hear the Word and share the Eucharist. not one with — gasp — singing, or costumes (i know, the vestments have meaning), or pomp and circumstance. i’m finding this takes away from worship. what do you think?

I dont’ really understand this desire to return to the Mass of the first century Christians. They were a persecuted people who celebrated the Mass in secret. So, of course, they didn’t have longer, more elaborate liturgies. Nor did they have distinctive dress or music that might call attention to themselves.

We are very fortunate that we are not living as the early Christians did and do not have to restrain our joyful noise or minimize our outward celebrations. Something tells me the early Christians would have welcomed the chance to worship exhuberantly, with more pomp and circumstances, if they weren’t in fear of arrest.

 

[TimothyH]

Something tells me the early Christians would have welcomed the chance to worship exhuberantly, with more pomp and circumstances, if they weren’t in fear of arrest.

And they did exactly that afer Christianity was legalized. St. Augustine said that the Great Amen after the Doxology (through him, with him, in him…) was so loud that it used to shake the pagan temples of the Roman gods.

-Tim-

 

[0129141]

i’m interested in knowing what others think about returning to a simpler mass, one that the earliest catholics must have experienced. one where we gather to pray, hear the Word and share the Eucharist. not one with — gasp — singing, or costumes (i know, the vestments have meaning), or pomp and circumstance. i’m finding this takes away from worship. what do you think?

We already have most of this this, its called Novus Ordo

 

[puzzleannie]

i’m interested in knowing what others think about returning to a simpler mass, one that the earliest catholics must have experienced. one where we gather to pray, hear the Word and share the Eucharist. not one with — gasp — singing, or costumes (i know, the vestments have meaning), or pomp and circumstance. i’m finding this takes away from worship. what do you think?

uh that pretty much describes the Mass today, and through the centuries
Jesus and the apostles left the Last Supper singing psalms
Acts clearly mentions proclaiming the Hebrew scriptures, including psalms, which at that time were usually sung, and listening to an account of the witness of the apostles, and breaking of the bread, the Eucharist. In the earliest days the men present would have worn the special garments Jewish men donned for prayer, and the rest of the vestments (not costumes) evolved from the ordinary dress of the day and accoutrements (towels etc). Incense was certainly used in the temple and naturally that use would be carried over to the Eucharistic sacrifice at appropriate times.

What specifically is it, in the Mass as celebrated today, that you opine was not present in the earliest Christian liturgies? Even the collection for the needs of the poor, the local church, and funding the apostles in the missionary work is mentioned in the NT.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

i’m interested in knowing what others think about returning to a simpler mass, one that the earliest catholics must have experienced. one where we gather to pray, hear the Word and share the Eucharist. not one with — gasp — singing, or costumes (i know, the vestments have meaning), or pomp and circumstance. i’m finding this takes away from worship. what do you think?

First things first.
Remember that is not vestments or no vestments, singing or no singing that make the mass.
The mass is “ex opera operato”, by itself makes its effect, whatever the paraphrenalia. This is a question of personal taste, not the real essence of things, whihc is The Passion and Ressurection of Christ, and the eating and drinking His Blood and Flesh.

 

[liturgyluver]

i’m interested in knowing what others think about returning to a simpler mass, one that the earliest catholics must have experienced. one where we gather to pray, hear the Word and share the Eucharist. not one with — gasp — singing, or costumes (i know, the vestments have meaning), or pomp and circumstance. i’m finding this takes away from worship. what do you think?

What you are describing surely are the daily masses that take place as described. If you are suggesting that this structure should also replace High Mass on a sunday, I would strongly disagree: Sunday mass has already had so many of its great elements stripped from it: I have read on other threads that even incense and sanctus bells are no longer common, and I am fed up of seeing people mumble their way through mass as quickly as possible and walk out so they can tick the box. There is a time and place for simplicity but we also have a duty to uphold tradition.

 

[phrederik]

OraLabora; Put it in human terms: if you’re having a simple weekday supper on a Friday (assuming you observe the Friday fast), the meal won’t be as elaborate as if you were celebrating your grandparents’ 50th wedding anniversary will it? Nor should the the Mass (and LOTH) be the same on each day.

great comparison!

I Thirst; it takes more time and folks have to get to soccer games, go shopping, etc

it isn’t about the time, i agree too many people treat mass as a duty, not a joy

puzzleannie; In the earliest days the men present would have worn the special garments Jewish men donned for prayer, and the rest of the vestments (not costumes) evolved [my emphasis added] from the ordinary dress of the day

that’s my point, vestments derive from the clothing of the time, today it is costuming.

puzzleannie; What specifically is it, in the Mass as celebrated today, that you opine was not present in the earliest Christian liturgies?

the frequency of singing. for example, if the gloria is sung, the majority of worshipers are not singing, its only the choir. unless the masses you attend are different than the ones i attend. and yes they choose to not sing, but i suspect they would recite the prayer …

Pfaffenhoffen This is a question of personal taste, not the real essence of things, whihc is The Passion and Ressurection of Christ, and the eating and drinking His Blood and Flesh.

i agree, and for me the pomp and circumstance detract from the mass’ true essence, as if it’s the entertainment which is important

**liturgyluver **we also have a duty to uphold tradition

this may be the core of my thought, are we upholding the mass as it was originally done, its true tradition, or are we upholding some result of the changes it has gone thru?

 

[puzzleannie]

the frequency of singing. for example, if the gloria is sung, ?

most daily masses don’t have singing
the gloria is only on Sunday
and at least here chanted or sung only at one Mass

that’s it? the singing? and you persist in calling sacred vestments costumes even though each component has a meaning and purpose? come one, you can to better than that

since we know there was singing even in the earliest days what is it that gripes you about it?

 

[OraLabora]

We already have most of this this, its called Novus Ordo

Flame bait. I attend an OF Mass and it is done solemnly with incense, bells, Gregorian chant and French plainchant and is very elaborate and reverent. It has nothing to do with the form of the Mass but rather the licence of some liturgists.

 

[PrayForMeStJude]

i’m interested in knowing what others think about returning to a simpler mass, one that the earliest catholics must have experienced. one where we gather to pray, hear the Word and share the Eucharist. not one with — gasp — singing, or costumes (i know, the vestments have meaning), or pomp and circumstance. i’m finding this takes away from worship. what do you think?

Actually, the vestments ARE from the earliest Christian gatherings, because they developed from the typical clothes of Romans at the time. So there you go!

 

[TheMc]

Actually, the vestments ARE from the earliest Christian gatherings, because they developed from the typical clothes of Romans at the time. So there you go!

For example, the maniple, a now optional vestment, decended from a type of hankerchief that would be tied on the wrists of many nobles, and possibly many commoners too. Since then, it’s gained other symbolism. It symbolizes the sweat and tears of the clerical life.

 

[TrueLight]

And they did exactly that afer Christianity was legalized. St. Augustine said that the Great Amen after the Doxology (through him, with him, in him…) was so loud that it used to shake the pagan temples of the Roman gods.

-Tim-

Wow. That really blessed me.

 

[phrederik]

most daily masses don’t have singing
the gloria is only on Sunday
and at least here chanted or sung only at one Mass

that’s it? the singing? and you persist in calling sacred vestments costumes even though each component has a meaning and purpose? come one, you can to better than that

since we know there was singing even in the earliest days what is it that gripes you about it?

my obervation, not gripe, is that the mass becomes entertainment and it’s meaning is lost amoungst the pomp and circumstance.

maybe i should make an effort to attend daily mass …

 

[YoungTradCath]

my obervation, not gripe, is that the mass becomes entertainment and it’s meaning is lost amoungst the pomp and circumstance.

maybe i should make an effort to attend daily mass …

Really? I can respect where you’re coming from, but I disagree.

This: youtube.com/watch?v=m893xZ0vkGM&feature=related is an Extraordinary Form (ie “old”) Requiem mass; I believe it may be an All Souls’ Day mass. It was posted on another thread. This short clip is full of pomp and circumstance, but it certainly is NOT entertainment. It’s extremely beautiful, but it most certainly is not entertainment.

Pomp and circumstance and beauty does not condemn a mass that is full of it to “entertainment” purposes only. That video, as I said, is full of pomp, but it does not resemble in any way entertainment. At the same time, I think many of our most modernistic masses today are also chock full of pomp and circumstance, and they most certainly have, in my opinion, degenerated at least partially into entertainment.

 

[phrederik]

Really? I can respect where you’re coming from, but I disagree.

This: youtube.com/watch?v=m893xZ0vkGM&feature=related is an Extraordinary Form (ie “old”) Requiem mass; I believe it may be an All Souls’ Day mass. It was posted on another thread. This short clip is full of pomp and circumstance, but it certainly is NOT entertainment. It’s extremely beautiful, but it most certainly is not entertainment.

i suspect you are enamored with the tridentine mass and, respectfully, i believe there is an entertainment factor in your enjoyment. i guess that is a beauty of the church, we have many forms of worship. i prefer a simpler mass.

 

[Corki]

this may be the core of my thought, are we upholding the mass as it was originally done, its true tradition, or are we upholding some result of the changes it has gone thru?

The traditions of the Church are not just those that have been around for 2000 years. There are many traditions that developed over time to serve the Church. That doesn’t mean that they are not “true” traditions.

There is no magic date where one can say “only those elements present before this date” are true traditions.

 

[YoungTradCath]

i suspect you are enamored with the tridentine mass and, respectfully, i believe there is an entertainment factor in your enjoyment. i guess that is a beauty of the church, we have many forms of worship. i prefer a simpler mass.

I suspect you don’t know the reason for my preference for the EF mass. Relativity is a sad part of our world today.