Simple question about praying to the saints

[CaliLobo]

Some Catholics will say that “praying to Mary and the saints” really means “asking Mary and the saints to pray for you”.

But looking at the text of novenas, and even the Hail Mary, why are prayers to Mary and the saints worded as if you’re praying to them directly?

Which one is it?

 

[AndyP2010]

The first part of the Hail Mary for instance quotes scripture:

Luke 1:28 “Hail full of grace, the Lord is with you”
Luke 1:42 “Most blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb”
The rest is the petition for Mary to pray for us.

“Holy Mary, mother of God pray for us sinners, Now and at the hour of our death, Amen”

see you identify who you are making the request from and then state your desire for intercession.

 

[CaliLobo]

How about this novena to St. Raphael, which says:

Glorious Archangel Saint Raphael,
great prince of the heavenly court,
you are illustrious
for your gifts of wisdom and grace.
You are a guide of those who journey
by land or sea or air,
consoler of the afflicted,
and refuge of sinners.
I beg you,
assist me in all my needs
and in all the sufferings of this life,
as once you helped
the young Tobias on his travels.
Because you are the medicine of God,
**I humbly pray you to heal the many infirmities
of my soul and the ills that afflict my body.
I especially ask of you the favour

(Make your request here…)

and the great grace of purity
to prepare me to be the temple of the Holy Spirit.**

Amen.

This is just one of many examples.

 

[Jon_Paul]

Some Catholics will say that “praying to Mary and the saints” really means “asking Mary and the saints to pray for you”.

But looking at the text of novenas, and even the Hail Mary, why are prayers to Mary and the saints worded as if you’re praying to them directly?

Which one is it?

It’s both. Take the Hail Mary as an example.

When when say the first half of the Hail Mary we are addressing Our Lady with reverence and honour. We call her blessed! And in the second half of the Hail Mary we ask her intercession for us. When a Catholic prays to Our Lady or a saint they are directly addressing that saint, yes to ask for intercession, but also to honour and venerate them.

There is nothing wrong with this.

 

[CaliLobo]

It’s both. Take the Hail Mary as an example.

When when say the first half of the Hail Mary we are addressing Our Lady with reverence and honour. We call her blessed! And in the second half of the Hail Mary we ask her intercession for us. When a Catholic prays to Our Lady or a saint they are directly addressing that saint, yes to ask for intercession, but also to honour and venerate them.

There is nothing wrong with this.

Why is that not borderline idol worship, or putting other gods before God?

 

[Jon_Paul]

Why is that not borderline idol worship, or putting other gods before God?

Because we do not address Our Lady, the angels and saints, as gods. Thus we do not detract from the divine worship owed to God alone. We do not prescribe divinity to them, but to God alone.

 

[bzkoss236]

Why is that not borderline idol worship, or putting other gods before God?

Because they are not gods, and any power they have comes from God. We can address them as such because God can and has used the Saints’ intercessions to perform miracles (part of the criteria for someone being declared a Saint is having 2 confirmed miracles attributed to their intercession). They work in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is why Catholics usually begin and end every prayer with the Sign of the Cross, because God is the center of all we do. Prayer to the Saints is never to the exclusion of Christ or God as a whole.

Also, the original definition of the word pray means “to ask; to beg; to plead”, so when we pray to the Saints, we are asking them. And when you ask someone on earth to pray for you, you are praying to them. Older English is a good example of this with phrases such as “I pray thee”, which means “I ask of you”.

 

[Millie123]

To pray is a very old word which simply means to ask, nowadays protestants view prayer as a form of worship that is only given to God. But the problem with this point of view is that this is an inaccurate understanding of the word “pray”, throughout history the word “pray” has been understood as meaning to ask, or make a request or petition…

I’ll use the King James Bible to show you my point.

Genesis 16:2
And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I PRAY THEE, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

Was Sarah worshiping Abraham because she prayed to him?

Genesis 27:21
And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I PRAY THEE, that I may feel thee, my son, whether thou be my very son Esau or not.

Was Isaac worshiping Jacob because he prayed to him?

1 Samuel 16:22
And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I PRAY THEE, stand before me; for he hath found favour in my sight.

Was Saul worshiping Jesse because he prayed to him

I have many, many more examples to show you about the correct meaning of prayer.
Yes, Catholics pray to Saints. I pray to the Blessed Mother and to the Saints, I do not deny it… I pray to saints, as in I make requests, ask a questions or petition their intercession. This is the proper under understanding of the word “pray”

 

[pablope]

Why is that not borderline idol worship, or putting other gods before God?

Worship to God…involves sacrifice…which is what Catholics do during the Mass…or Divine Liturgy.

Prayer is not worship…the meaning of prayer is to ask, make a plea, ask for help.

The very first Christians worshipped via the Mass or Divine Liturgy. During the Protestant reformation…the succeeding generations of protestants…in order not to look “Catholic”…started throwing out their catholic roots. So some present day protestants have lost their connection to their catholic roots…and manner of worship…so what is left? Prayer has taken the form of worship.

 

[pablope]

Some Catholics will say that “praying to Mary and the saints” really means “asking Mary and the saints to pray for you”.

But looking at the text of novenas, and even the Hail Mary, why are prayers to Mary and the saints worded as if you’re praying to them directly?

Which one is it?

Angels offer our prayers to God:

Rev 8:

3 Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

Saints also offer our prayers to God:

REv 5…8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints

 

[Starrsmother]

Some Catholics will say that “praying to Mary and the saints” really means “asking Mary and the saints to pray for you”.

But looking at the text of novenas, and even the Hail Mary, why are prayers to Mary and the saints worded as if you’re praying to them directly?

Which one is it?

Because we are praying directly to the saint in question or Mary in the sense that we are saying "Please, Mary (or Saint XXX) would you ask your Son for this special blessing for me (or whomever)? The word “pray” actually means “to ask”. God is the source of all that we receive, but obviously someone who has led an exemplary life and is in heaven with God may have more influence than us on earth. Additionally, in the Creed, it refers to the “Communion of saints” which includes those souls in heaven and us on earth as one church hoping for and working toward the salvation of us all. As Jesus’ mother, we know that she has Jesus’ “ear” if you will. Jesus performed His first miracle because she asked Him to at Cana. I imagine someone at the wedding first asked her to ask her son–or in some way to help them-- find more wine for the celebration. And obviously, Jesus loved his mother and wouldn’t tell her no. We hope she will ask Him to intervene for us, just as she did for the couple in Cana.

 

[Johnny31897]

Hey CaliLobo,

Here are few things that might help/put it in the right perspective.
The only reason we venerate the saints and Our Lady is because of the heroic way in which they cooperated with God’s grace. As the Catholic Church teaches, In any prayer to a saint God must always be the end. When we honor Our Lady we are honoring God. Here in America, we live in a very cold culture where the focus has to be completely on God to the exclusion of of praising Him through the members of the mystical body of Christ. This modern idea is not Biblical. In Acts Ch. 19:12, people wanted to touch handkerchiefs to St.Paul. Or in the case of St. Peter, people wanted his shadow to pass over them. Today, many people would be astonished if people where trying to do this with the Pope, they would say it is worshiping him. Here we need to take a step back from our culture and look at the Bible. 1st Timothy 5:17 says: “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching” Also, take a look at Acts Ch. 20 which is a good example of the Biblical understanding of honor.

In the Catholic Church we have preserved the Biblical understanding regarding giving honor to the saints. The Church will be here for all time, and it alone will preserve the true meaning of venerating the saints and Our Lady. In 1st Corinthians 9:22 St Paul says: “To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some.” Here St. Paul is stating the he saves people, and he is. However, he is it doing it by working as a member of the mystical body of Christ, it is God’s grace that empowers him to do such things and ultimately God is the one who is glorified. This idea of giving glory to God through the saints is completely Biblical.

This is what Catholics do when we pray to the saints and Our Lady. Many of the words in some Catholic prayers can seem a bit too much in our time and culture. However in every one of these prayers it is understood that God is the end and that by praising the saints we are praising God. Even if a prayer says something such as: “Sweet heart of Mary be my salvation” it is understood that we mean it in the sense that St. Paul meant it when he said that he saves people. It is done be God’s grace working through the member of the body of Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that if we give the honor that is do to God alone to a saint we commit idolatry.

The biggest way that Catholics give honor to God (which we call adoration), is the Mass. The Mass is the once for all sacrifice of Christ offered to God for our redemption and applied to our lives by the ministry of the priest. This is the highest Catholic prayer, and the summit of our faith. Giving honor to the saints is not the center of Catholic prayer. However, it is completely Biblical and good.

Hope this helps!
I learned this from Tim Staples, check out this addition of Catholic answers live: catholic.com/radio/shows/open-forum-for-non-catholics-8872# 6:00 minutes in.

 

[kmcarl56]

I am a non-Catholic Christian who, after being on this site, can now understand WHY Catholics address their prayers to Mary or other Saints, or have figurines of them in their homes.

Before, I thought Catholics were actually worshipping Mary or other Saints INSTEAD of God/Jesus by praying to them. I, and most other protestants, take the commandment not to place any other gods before Him very very seriously. But to us, it seemed like Catholics were not obeying this commandment by their prayers to anyone other than God Himself.

This is a huge misunderstanding on the part of protestants and other religions simply because of a lack of information about the Truth.

Now I can appreciate the dedication and devotion Catholics have in their prayers to God, even if it is through their words to Mary and other Saints.

Thank you for bringing up this question.

:extrahappy: Joy to the world, and may peace and love be with you all.

 

[kmcarl56]

… but I do still have a question as why it seems like Catholics only and always pray to Mary? It appears to me that all the prayers I’ve seen on this forum are addressed to Mary first and foremost. Why not just pray to God himself all the time?

Mary was an earthly creature who brought a spiritual being into the world. I revere her, but do not pray to her. As a non-Catholic, I only pray to God in Jesus’ name, not Mary’s name. I believe that God hears my prayers and that my voice is just as important to Him as that of a spiritual saint. I know that He hears me because He answers me. I have had so many miracles in my life that there is no doubt that God hears my prayers.

I guess I am still confused.

 

[Starrsmother]

… but I do still have a question as why it seems like Catholics only and always pray to Mary? It appears to me that all the prayers I’ve seen on this forum are addressed to Mary first and foremost. Why not just pray to God himself all the time?

Mary was an earthly creature who brought a spiritual being into the world. I revere her, but do not pray to her. As a non-Catholic, I only pray to God in Jesus’ name, not Mary’s name. I believe that God hears my prayers and that my voice is just as important to Him as that of a spiritual saint. I know that He hears me because He answers me. I have had so many miracles in my life that there is no doubt that God hears my prayers.

I guess I am still confused.

A very honest question. I think different Catholics have different preferences in individual prayer. I know I pray to Jesus and the Father daily, but I also pray to Mary–especially when I’m in a difficult situation. Also, I love the Rosary. Catholics believe that Mary was given to all mankind as a kind of spiritual mother when Jesus told the apostle John from the cross “Behold your mother and woman behold your son.” If you remember, it says in the bible that from that point on, John did take Mary as his own mother and cared for her. If you want something from a parent, you might well talk to your earthly mother and ask her to help you in your cause before you hit up your Dad, right? Catholics often follow the same principle when asking for things from God, our Father. Put another way, it’s probably not a BAD idea to have Mary on your side when you are asking God for something special. Jesus gave in to her wishes at the wedding feast and obviously loved his mom a lot!

I don’t know if you believe in near death experiences or not. I guess I’m sort of open to the idea that some may be genuine and possibly others not so much. Anyway, I’m going to attach a link that is from a priest who feels that he had such an experience and Mary literally saved his life—but more importantly, his SOUL! I’m not telling you to believe it–I’m just saying that you ask very valid and respectful questions and are open to an explanation, so you might be interested in this. I attach this link in the same sense of respect for you. And if it happened to be true, would you pray to Mary?

catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php?topic=2817859.0

 

[JerryZ]

… but I do still have a question as why it seems like Catholics only and always pray to Mary? It appears to me that all the prayers I’ve seen on this forum are addressed to Mary first and foremost. Why not just pray to God himself all the time?

Mary was an earthly creature who brought a spiritual being into the world. I revere her, but do not pray to her. As a non-Catholic, I only pray to God in Jesus’ name, not Mary’s name. I believe that God hears my prayers and that my voice is just as important to Him as that of a spiritual saint. I know that He hears me because He answers me. I have had so many miracles in my life that there is no doubt that God hears my prayers.

I guess I am still confused.

Well look here:

Letter of James Chapter 5

5:15 And a prayer of faith will save the infirm, and the Lord will alleviate him. And if he has sins, these will be forgiven him.
5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be saved. For the unremitting prayer of a just person prevails over many things. 5:17 Elijah was a mortal man like us, and in prayer he prayed that it would not rain upon the earth. And it did not rain for three years and six months.
5:18 And he prayed again. And the heavens gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

If the prayer of just person avails much how much more can the prayer of a Saint in Heaven or an Angel?
What about the mother of Jesus? Would her prayer to Jesus avail much?

In John Chapter 2 we read:
2:1 And on the third day, a wedding was held in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
2:2 Now Jesus was also invited to the wedding, with his disciples.
2:3 And when the wine was failing, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
2:4 And Jesus said to her: “What is that to me and to you, woman? My hour has not yet arrived.”
2:5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

And Jesus performs His first miracle, therefore initiating His ministry on earth that would culminate with Calvary.
Look at Mary response, she directs the servants to “Do whatever HE tells you”

Total faith!

Luke Chapter 1
1:38 Then Mary said: “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.” And the Angel departed from her.

She is your and my mother in Heaven, she loves you as much as she loves Jesus.

John Chapter 19

19:26 Therefore, when Jesus had seen his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold your son.”
19:27 Next, he said to the disciple, “Behold your mother.”

Do her prayers availeth much?

 

[coachkfan1]

Has any human being in history ever loved Jesus more than Mary did/does? Has any human being ever known him as intimately as his mother did/does? Has any created being been more obediant to the will of God than the Mother of God herself? Food for thought.

 

[kmcarl56]

A very honest question. I think different Catholics have different preferences in individual prayer. I know I pray to Jesus and the Father daily, but I also pray to Mary–especially when I’m in a difficult situation. Also, I love the Rosary. Catholics believe that Mary was given to all mankind as a kind of spiritual mother when Jesus told the apostle John from the cross “Behold your mother and woman behold your son.” If you remember, it says in the bible that from that point on, John did take Mary as his own mother and cared for her. If you want something from a parent, you might well talk to your earthly mother and ask her to help you in your cause before you hit up your Dad, right? Catholics often follow the same principle when asking for things from God, our Father. Put another way, it’s probably not a BAD idea to have Mary on your side when you are asking God for something special. Jesus gave in to her wishes at the wedding feast and obviously loved his mom a lot!

I don’t know if you believe in near death experiences or not. I guess I’m sort of open to the idea that some may be genuine and possibly others not so much. Anyway, I’m going to attach a link that is from a priest who feels that he had such an experience and Mary literally saved his life—but more importantly, his SOUL! I’m not telling you to believe it–I’m just saying that you ask very valid and respectful questions and are open to an explanation, so you might be interested in this. I attach this link in the same sense of respect for you. And if it happened to be true, would you pray to Mary?

catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php?topic=2817859.0

What an awesome story about this priest! And YES, I would beg Mother Mary to assist me in entreating Jesus to pull me out of Hell. As to your question about NDEs, the answer is a resounding YES. I have had one of my own.

In August 2010, I got blood clots in my right leg and left arm. I was in a coma for several weeks. While in a coma, I “died” (heart, kidney, & lung failure) and was immediately enveloped in the purest, whitest light one can imagine. All I felt was pure love, peace, and joy. It glowed all around me. I heard God’s voice tell me that it was not my time because He still has work for me to do. Then I saw my late husband who told me that I had to go back, but that he would be waiting there for me. I only awoke after my brother-in-law prayed over me.

I remembered nothing about what was wrong with me or how I got to the hospital’s ICU. The only thing I remembered was going to Heaven. I resolved at that moment that my only “job” on earth would be to tell everyone I meet in person or online about the wonderful grace and mercy of the Lord, about His forgiveness for our sins, and about the salvation that awaits those who believe in Him.

I made a YouTube video about my experience. You may watch it at this link if you are interested:

Thank you so much for your indepth explanation of prayers to Mother Mary and the Saints. I think I have a much better understanding now, and can put this issue to rest with regard to the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.

We are all on the same page, and we are all soldiers in Christ. Thanks be to God for sending Jesus to us with His ultimate wisdom, and for saving us all from the Evil One.

May God bless you and keep you all the days of your life from now and throughout eternity.

With all my love to you, my friend in Christ…

 

[bzkoss236]

… but I do still have a question as why it seems like Catholics only and always pray to Mary? It appears to me that all the prayers I’ve seen on this forum are addressed to Mary first and foremost. Why not just pray to God himself all the time?

Mary was an earthly creature who brought a spiritual being into the world. I revere her, but do not pray to her. As a non-Catholic, I only pray to God in Jesus’ name, not Mary’s name. I believe that God hears my prayers and that my voice is just as important to Him as that of a spiritual saint. I know that He hears me because He answers me. I have had so many miracles in my life that there is no doubt that God hears my prayers.

I guess I am still confused.

The simplest way I would answer this is to ask you, why would you ask your family and friends, who are mere creatures and have not yet reached the perfection of heaven to pray for you at all, when you could just address God alone?

The answer should be that God wants us to pray for each other, do we should ask others to pray for us, especially those in heaven because as Scripture says, the fervent prayers of the righteous are powerful!

 

[Denise1957]

I’m not sure if we are really praying to Mary when we, for instance, pray the Rosary. I’ve been looking for evidence that we are praying to Mary in the little book by St. Louis Grignion de Montfort called, “The Secret of the Rosary,” but I can’t find, as yet, anything which indicates, one way or the other, that we are praying directly to Mary. It would seem to me that we are praying in honor of the Blessed Virgin, but not to her, if that makes sense. By praying the Rosary, according to St Louis de Montfort, we honor and learn to imitate the Mysteries and virtues of the Life, Passion and Death, and Glory of Jesus and Mary.