Simple question regarding alleged Marian worship?

[jrtrent]

I must say ConstantineTG that your posts on this topic have made me really interested in looking further into Orthodox beliefs about this. In your posts I actually see a way to honor Mary that actually focuses attention on Christ and his promises for all who believe on him. I sort of assumed that the Orthodox thought the same way about Mary as Catholics did. I learned something today!

I know that ConstantineTG has already responded, but another source of information on differences between Catholic and Orthodox teaching, and with a chapter devoted to “The Mother of God,” is Clark Carlton’s book The Truth: What Every Roman Catholic Shold Know About the Orthodox Church (there is a similar book devoted to Protestants called The Way). In it, Carlton notes that the differences in thought about Mary stem in part from different understandings of original sin and of the “legalistic framework” for understanding sin and salvation. Four books of his make up what is called The Faith Series (The Faith, The Way, The Truth, The Life), and the back cover includes testimonials from bishops from several Orthodox churches (GOA, OCA, and Antiochian).

 

[guanophore]

   The images you shown on the Catholic side is a historic event, a recent Miracle, and not just an icon drawing which you have shown on the Orthodox side. It is not a violation of faith if we remember the recent miracle of Our Lady even without Christ on her side.

Although Jesus does not appear in the image at the “side” of our Lady, Catholics understand that all that Mary is, and does, emanates from her faith and position in Christ, as it should for all of us.

Even in the Oriental Orthodox tradition, Mary the Mother of God is seen on Top of the Church just like the Catholic Images you shown, Tell me, when and where is the most recent Miracle of Our Lady on the Eastern Orthodox?  err None?

There have been apparitions of Mary in the East, but the multitude of them in the West is certainly no matter for aggrandizement. God has allowed Mary to appear often in the Western Church to correct errors that exist here, and to restore balance that has never been lost in the East.

  i do see that the EO tradition is like  a dead body instead of the body of Christ, the Living Church

If this is truly your position, then you find yourself against the Teaching of the Catholic Church, which recognizes the East as the other lung of the body, very much alive and well, though not properly joined. The CC teaches that the EO have valid holy orders, valid sacraments, and valid apostolic succession. These elements make her very much “alive” in Christ.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you for the explanation James. As a convert I was having a lot of problems with the Hail, Holy Queen for those reasons.

Thanks for sharing the experience. Been praying the Rosary, reciting every prayer there and they never caught my attention until I came across Protestants objection to praying to Mary. They seem to have valid point to object to such prayer especially when it’s tied up with their theology of no mediator except for Christ.

Marian prayer is best understood as an intercessory prayer and the wording used should be seen in that context. Some intercessory prayers are very much devotion prayer too.

The Hail Mary should be considered mild even by Protestants standard but the other devotion prayer, one has to be grounded deeply in Catholic tradition in order to understand it correctly and for that matter, safely.

I went on Google and found a page that will translate…HERE
Just taking that first sentence of the prayer and looking at the Latin… We have…
Salve, Regína, mater misericórdiæ; vita, dulcédo et spes nóstra,
Which literally translates as,
Hail, Queen, mother of mercy; life, sweetness and our hope,

I’m know little about punctuation in Latin and how that might or might not effect things, but one can see that just in the wording, the common English version interjects the word “our” in places that it does not appear in the Latin.
The commonly used English translation and sentence structure can easily be seen to be referring back to Mary as our light, sweetness and hope instead of light sweetness and hope being tied to mercy - all of which Jesus is - and Mary is His mother.

Perhaps lyrically it flows better…but the more literal translation above is, IMHO, more clear.

Peace
James

 

[joe370]

guanophore;10182769]Although Jesus does not appear in the image at the “side” of our Lady, Catholics understand that all that Mary is, and does, emanates from her faith and position in Christ, as it should for all of us.

There have been apparitions of Mary in the East…

I can only think of one at the moment: the miracle of Damascus.

The CC teaches that the EO have valid holy orders, valid sacraments, and valid apostolic succession. These elements make her very much “alive” in Christ.

I sure wish the preceding was reciprocated…The EOC does not recognize valid sacraments in the CC. I am not sure about the other two; do you know?

 

[fred_conty]

Tho Icons show the devotion of Mary as the Mother of her son, Jesus, it does not capture the other side of her motherhood.

The picture of Fatima and Lourdes does this. It shows her motherhood and special devotion to her other children still here on earth.

And so our devotion to her is not only as the Mother of the child Jesus, but also as the Mother of all her children Jesus committed to her care.

A devoted son.

 

[Reuben_J]

I went on Google and found a page that will translate…HERE
Just taking that first sentence of the prayer and looking at the Latin… We have…
Salve, Regína, mater misericórdiæ; vita, dulcédo et spes nóstra,
Which literally translates as,
Hail, Queen, mother of mercy; life, sweetness and our hope,

I’m know little about punctuation in Latin and how that might or might not effect things, but one can see that just in the wording, the common English version interjects the word “our” in places that it does not appear in the Latin.
The commonly used English translation and sentence structure can easily be seen to be referring back to Mary as our light, sweetness and hope instead of light sweetness and hope being tied to mercy - all of which Jesus is - and Mary is His mother.

Perhaps lyrically it flows better…but the more literal translation above is, IMHO, more clear.

Peace
James

As an aside, btw, the Salve Regina when sung, is very beautiful and is one of my favorite Marian hymns.

Perhaps the placement of punctuation can make a difference in the meaning of the sentence but like I said, I would not be perturbed much by the prayer either ways. But that is because we understand it as an intercessory prayer and Mary is an intercessor. We can have personal relationship with an intercessor and when we ask her of something, it is only appropriate to say something nice about her. Similarly we can have personal relationship with a person who we would ask to pray for us. When we ask for favor, the right thing to do is to be nice to that person. What more, if that person is Mary, the mother of our Lord.

So the context is very important. On the surface this kind of salutation can be said of Jesus or the Holy Spirit too. And we know that when we use it for Mary, it is with the knowledge that she is our intercessor.

As for the Protestants who do not believe in this, I don’t think there is any amount of explanation will be sufficient to convince them. The best we can hope for is at least they know why we pray as such and that we do not worship Mary or elevate her as equal to God.

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

Tho Icons show the devotion of Mary as the Mother of her son, Jesus, it does not capture the other side of her motherhood.

The picture of Fatima and Lourdes does this. It shows her motherhood and special devotion to her other children still here on earth.

And so our devotion to her is not only as the Mother of the child Jesus, but also as the Mother of all her children Jesus committed to her care.

A devoted son.

Anyway the pictures of Fatima and Lourdes are very beautiful. That much at least can be said of them.Sometimes it may not come to our mind that the Blessed Virgin appeared to the three children at Fatima. Why didn’t she appear to a priest or church leaders or some high ranking politicians but instead to mere children? Ah, then it become familiar … . Jesus himself said for the little children to come to him and how he admired their childlike faith. Was it come as a surprise that Mary should appear to the three children at Fatima? Not at all, for she would not be much different in thought than her son.

 

[exnihilo]

In light of said accusations, could anyone making such claims please show me the official magisterial teaching (or unofficial teaching) to back up said claim?

In my opinion the Catholic Church has taught worship of Mary. And I think you can find Catholics who will admit this. However I think it is important to understand what worship means and meant historically. Worship as a word has come to mean that which is due God alone. But even so people still use it in the old sense. People will say that a husband worships his wife. By that they do not mean he actually thinks she has deific powers. They mean he honors her. I think the Catholic Church has consistently taught that a certain honor is due God alone.

As for an unofficial teaching the Catholic Encylopedia teaches worship of Mary.

As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia

Catholic Encyclopedia

I believe this is an area where one needs to first be clear on their terms. What do we mean by worship? What is worship? How do we worship? Is singing a song to someone worship? If so then love songs are worship. Is praising a person worship? If so then a parent encouraging their child is engaging in worship. In my opinion most people, including those who accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, have not given any thought to what worship really means.

I think Catholics want to avoid using that word worship with Mary like many want to avoid using the word pray. I think Catholics pray to Mary in the sense that they petition just as the word pray means. The fact is most people seem ignorant of language and history and unwilling to overcome their ignorance. If they would they would not only understand one can worship Mary and pray to her in a proper manner but in so doing might actually have a more robust understanding of God and His plan of salvation. I can understand Catholics wanting to deny worship and even prayer to Mary because the stubborn ignorance of accusers is hard to overcome and tiring.

The Orthodox practice was mentioned. I’m very ignorant of this but did stumble upon the Akathist which according to Wikipedia is a practice by Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches.

I note this from it:

Queen of the Heavenly Host, Defender of our souls, we thy servants offer to thee songs of victory and thanksgiving, for thou, O Mother of God, hast delivered us from dangers. But as thou has invincible power, free us from conflicts of all kinds that we may cry to thee

I would think this would be as difficult as the Salve Regina since it ascribes invincible power and the ability to free from conflicts to the Queen of the Heavenly Host.

 

[Della]

Tho Icons show the devotion of Mary as the Mother of her son, Jesus, it does not capture the other side of her motherhood.

The picture of Fatima and Lourdes does this. It shows her motherhood and special devotion to her other children still here on earth.

And so our devotion to her is not only as the Mother of the child Jesus, but also as the Mother of all her children Jesus committed to her care.

A devoted son.

Indeed. At Lourdes Our Lady asked for repentence and penance, and the same at Fatima. In both instances Europe was on the edge of wars and the sufferings that come with them. What does St. Paul tell us about wars? That they are the result of us wanting our own will instead of God’s will. Our Lady, in every instance of her apparitions, draws us back to God and doing God’s will. She doesn’t appear for her own sake but as an ambassador and as our mother.

As to Constantine’s concerns regarding Mariology, all the Church’s teachings about Mary are not about her, per se, but tell us something about her Son, his mission and our relatiohship with him. Unless one studies the Marian teachings with that in mind (or ignores or wishes to remain in ignorance of this fact) then they will not make sense or will seem extreme.

Our Protestant brethren have a limited view of what it means to be Christian. The vast majority are not at fault in this–they know no better. What they should do if they wish to understand what the Church teaches about Mary, or any other teaching, is to read what the Church itself says instead of assuming things or trying to make sense of it apart from knowing the truth.

Our Marian prayers and practices are worthy and proper and in no way take anything from Christ or the worship of God, nor do we worship Mary, no matter how intense our praise of her and regard for her might be–true worship requires sacrifice, and since the only sacrifice we offer God is the one sacrifice of Christ, we cannot worship her merely by asking for her heavenly intercession/aid nor by singing her praises. Rather, the Marian teachings and practices draw us deeper into our relationship with Christ by giving us a fuller understanding of who he is and what he wishes to accomplish in us–once we understand their meaning and how they apply to us.

 

[benjohnson]

From a Lutheran viewpoint is seems that some Catholics do stray into a bit of too much devotion to Mary - from our viewpoint, there seems to be some rather odd behavior surrounding Fatima for example.

That said, I see a tremendous devotion to Mary from the worlds poor, and even though such overpowering devotion may not be quite technically correct, I have never had the urge to stop people I meet in person who seem to need the direct love that the Theotokos seems to give in the name of Jesus.

 

[joe370]

From a Lutheran viewpoint is seems that some Catholics do stray into a bit of too much devotion to Mary - from our viewpoint, there seems to be some rather odd behavior surrounding Fatima for example.

That said, I see a tremendous devotion to Mary from the worlds poor, and even though such overpowering devotion may not be quite technically correct, I have never had the urge to stop people I meet in person who seem to need the direct love that the Theotokos seems to give in the name of Jesus.

What is your response to post number one?

 

[StCardinalVirtu]

Also, in regards to the differences in art between Catholics and Orthodox, you only need to remember the Iconoclasm. That event completely separated Catholic art from Orthodox to this day.

And thanks for getting the Latin Translation of the Hail Holy Queen. Latin often doesn’t have the little words we do in English “the, his, our” because it’s implied in the way the word is written. So, translators have to supply those words themselves.

However, you’ve made me see the prayer differently.

Greetings, Holy Queen,
WHO IS Mother of Mercy,
AND ALSO Life
AND ALSO Sweetness
AND ALSO Hope

She is Mother of all of that, i,e. Jesus.

Also, someone made us think deeper about the words pray and worship. I’m reading Game of Thrones right now and that fits perfectly in that when they say Pray, they are asking for something.

Pray tell. Please tell.

So, rather than run from the word pray, like I’ve been wont to do, we should go the Catholic route and get into word roots.

Thanks guys.

 

[benjohnson]

What is your response to post number one?

Certainly there are many Protestants who don’t understand what they see when Catholics show devotion to Mary, so they wrongly assume that Catholics are expressing latria to Mary.

But to be fair, I would say that there are Catholics that also make the same mistake about Catholic teaching and are incorrectly expressing something too close to latria to Mary. I would also say that the Catholic church itself, perhaps, does focus it’s recent teachings too much on Mary so such confusion is to be expected.

To critique my own church, I would say we have possibly pushed Mary aside a bit to far and we should firmly user her example as a way of teaching the gospel in that she has been shown the love that God wants for all of us.

 

[CopticChristian]

Since becoming catholic, (and long before) I have been told by some non-Catholics (with the exception of EO Christians) that the Catholic Church teaches Marian worship. I have been witnessing these claims recently right here at CAF. In light of said accusations, could anyone making such claims please show me the official magisterial teaching (or unofficial teaching) to back up said claim?

Joe,

The entire question revolves around, what is “worship”?

catholic.com/quickquestions/has-the-church-ever-condemned-any-marian-devotions-as-idolatrous

Full Question

Has the Church ever condemned any Marian devotions as idolatrous?

Answer

Yes. In the fourth to fifth centuries there was a heresy known as Collyridianism, in which the adherents treated the Virgin Mary as a goddess by offering to her a bread sacrifice during their liturgies. The primary defender of the orthodox Catholic position was St. Ephiphanius of Salamis in his work Panarion.

ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/COLLYRID.TXT

Modern parallels

Collyridianism is seen today in various forms. Those “hyper-Marian”
groups and writers who overly exalt Mary and focus on her to the
exclusion (or near exclusion) of Christ are guilty of something
approaching idolatry. Modern feminism is the source of a recycled
Collyridianism that worships a “mother goddess” and seeks to
“re-image” God in female terms.

 

[JRKH]

Since becoming catholic, (and long before) I have been told by some non-Catholics (with the exception of EO Christians) that the Catholic Church teaches Marian worship. I have been witnessing these claims recently right here at CAF. In light of said accusations, could anyone making such claims please show me the official magisterial teaching (or unofficial teaching) to back up said claim?

Joe - I thought I had posted this earlier but can’t find the post??..

But a good resource for what the Church officially teaches might be Lumen Gentium
Scroll down to paragraph 52 which starts talking about Mary in the Church.

Those who wrote LG obviously had some concerns over this matter of “over-doing” it in our devotions to Our Lady because they state this:
67. This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.(22*) But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

Peace
James

 

[Della]

Actually, the Church has pretty narrowly defined Mary’s role and her honors considering how vast and unknowable is the God we worship. Her many titles tell us about God’s plan of redemption and that we too are being formed into the image and likeness of Christ, just as she had to be. We do not focus too much attention on Mary in this because the focus isn’t her as much as it is who Christ is and what he has done and continues to do for us. One could say that Mary is the lens through which we see Christ more fully.

God granted Mary special graces and privileges because of who and what his Son is and what he was to become (man) and what he was to do. I rather think we’ll never plumb the full depths of what that means. We have only our poor words to try to express it.

All Christians agree that with the fall of Adam and Eve we lost saving grace. What the Church is telling us in its Marian teachings is that through Mary’s “Yes” and Christ’s sacrificial life and death and in his resurrection he has re-created the world. Mary is the Second Eve as Christ is the Second Adam–the “parents” of the new humanity. Is it any wonder that the Church has explored the meaning of this mystery in the lives of Jesus and Mary? We are all Mary’s children now because she is the Mother of God (Theotokos) and the fact that Christ gave her to us in the person of John the Apostle. Everything the Church teaches about Mary is grounded in this understanding of God’s redemptive plan for mankind.

 

[joe370]

Joe - I thought I had posted this earlier but can’t find the post??..

But a good resource for what the Church officially teaches might be Lumen Gentium
Scroll down to paragraph 52 which starts talking about Mary in the Church.

Those who wrote LG obviously had some concerns over this matter of “over-doing” it in our devotions to Our Lady because they state this:
67. This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.(22*) But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

Peace
James

 

[ConstantineTG]

The images you shown on the Catholic side is a historic event, a recent Miracle, and not just an icon drawing which you have shown on the Orthodox side. It is not a violation of faith if we remember the recent miracle of Our Lady even without Christ on her side.

The way it is depicted is not historic, so it is already besides the point. The Orthodox icons are historic events as well, unless you believe that Mary did not carry a young boy Jesus.

Even in the Oriental Orthodox tradition, Mary the Mother of God is seen on Top of the Church just like the Catholic Images you shown, Tell me, when and where is the most recent Miracle of Our Lady on the Eastern Orthodox? err None?

orthodoxhawaii.org/icons.html

The EO tradition is correct,but the church did not just stop after 1000 years and not under go any change nor major event did ever occur, Even the Fathers changed their own liturgy and tradition. i do see that the EO tradition is like a dead body instead of the body of Christ, the Living Church

Have you even been to an Eastern Orthodox church? It is not the Orthodox Church who has codified everything that understanding of the faith can no longer change to the understanding of the present time and culture. Before you point fingers, experience Orthodoxy first.

 

[ConstantineTG]

All I can say is that it appears that you misunderstand Church teaching and the content of my post.

How?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I can only think of one at the moment: the miracle of Damascus.

There have been many apparitions of the Theotokos to Orthodox Christians. But it is not turned into how the Roman Catholic Church has made of the Marian apparitions. There are no “secrets” that Orthodox Christians debate about and insist that a certain country needs to be consecrated in some way even though it has already been said that private revelations are non-dogmatic and non-doctrinal and yet people insist that what has been privately revealed should be done as a matter of duty by the Church.

The Theotokos has appeared several times to St. Seraphim of Sarov mariedenazareth.com/2402.0.html?&L=1