Simple question regarding alleged Marian worship?

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Since becoming catholic, (and long before) I have been told by some non-Catholics (with the exception of EO Christians) that the Catholic Church teaches Marian worship. I have been witnessing these claims recently right here at CAF. In light of said accusations, could anyone making such claims please show me the official magisterial teaching (or unofficial teaching) to back up said claim? 🙂
THere is no such thing as “[Marian worship]”.

Latria

Dulia

Hyperdulia

The first is Worship. Owed only to God.

The second is veneration to the saints and martyrs. We ask them for their intercession, like me asking you to pray for me. And you do pray for me in your prayers and petitions to God.

The third is to the Theotokos, Aeiparthenos, Kacharitomene!!! for she is the Mother of God and enjoys the most favor above all the saints and martyrs. For she is the Queen of Saints and Martyrs.

Again, Latria-which is worship-is only for God.

This should clear the “allegations”.
 
Since becoming catholic, (and long before) I have been told by some non-Catholics (with the exception of EO Christians) that the Catholic Church teaches Marian worship. I have been witnessing these claims recently right here at CAF. In light of said accusations, could anyone making such claims please show me the official magisterial teaching (or unofficial teaching) to back up said claim? 🙂
As Jane Jacobs claims, culture is passed on not by books, print, and abstract precepts, but by example. Given that, many in my parish, those of friends, and people held up as examples of “good” in many Catholic venues were Marian worshipers. That’s only natural. As humans we have a tendency towards worship of the Mother, Sumeramis, Isis, or whatever She is called by any group through time or space.

So while there may not be, and isn’t, by far, as far as I know, a Magesterial prompting to such worship, despite dogma, it is de facto taught by the example of the devout Marian worshipers of my experience.
 
As Jane Jacobs claims, culture is passed on not by books, print, and abstract precepts, but by example. Given that, many in my parish, those of friends, and people held up as examples of “good” in many Catholic venues were Marian worshipers. That’s only natural. As humans we have a tendency towards worship of the Mother, Sumeramis, Isis, or whatever She is called by any group through time or space.

So while there may not be, and isn’t, by far, as far as I know, a Magesterial prompting to such worship, despite dogma, it is de facto taught by the example of the devout Marian worshipers of my experience.
Since the Magisterium adamantly discourages Marian worship, devout Marian worshippers, de facto or otherwise, should be expected toe the line. 👍 Of course Christians belonging to the CC are to defer to the teaching office of the CC, as opposed to the de facto teachings of the devout Marian worshippers.
 
Since the Magisterium adamantly discourages Marian worship, devout Marian worshippers, de facto or otherwise, should be expected toe the line. 👍 Of course Christians belonging to the CC are to defer to the teaching office of the CC, as opposed to the de facto teachings of the devout Marian worshippers.
Why?
 
Yes. Why? You have thought enough to “convert,” which is in its context rather admirable, but perhaps you are not done yet. I don’t think so, and eventually you may see why. Ripeness is all. That you wonder now, or not, is of no consequence. But perhaps eventually you will widen the scope of your considerations. The idea of Marian devotion/worship has far deeper roots than you might see at the moment.
 
Yes. Why? You have thought enough to “convert,” which is in its context rather admirable, but perhaps you are not done yet. I don’t think so, and eventually you may see why. Ripeness is all. That you wonder now, or not, is of no consequence. But perhaps eventually you will widen the scope of your considerations. The idea of Marian devotion/worship has far deeper roots than you might see at the moment.
Just to be fair, you may want to explain Marian worship first though. While Marian devotion is pretty much a way of life for many Catholics, Marian worship is not and that needs deeper understanding and explanation for ordinary Catholics in order to avoid misunderstanding of it.
 
Yes. Why? You have thought enough to “convert,” which is in its context rather admirable, but perhaps you are not done yet. I don’t think so, and eventually you may see why. Ripeness is all. That you wonder now, or not, is of no consequence. But perhaps eventually you will widen the scope of your considerations. The idea of Marian devotion/worship has far deeper roots than you might see at the moment.
Clearly there has been a miss-communication. Mary was the reason why I converted, to be absolutely honest. I have a huge devotion to my Mother, Mary. I have always been a doubting Thomas, so to speak, and it was the various Marian apparitions that had a huge impact on me, in terms of belief in Jesus, specifically, Fuastina, Fatima, and Lourdes. I have read the works of almost all of the saints that have been touched by either Jesus or Mary, in terms of private revelation. Garabandal, although not approved by the CC played is mind-boggling in my opinion. 🙂
 
Yes. Why? You have thought enough to “convert,” which is in its context rather admirable, but perhaps you are not done yet. I don’t think so, and eventually you may see why. Ripeness is all. That you wonder now, or not, is of no consequence. But perhaps eventually you will widen the scope of your considerations. The idea of Marian devotion/worship has far deeper roots than you might see at the moment.
I am sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about my friend. :confused:

We agree that the Magisterium adamantly discourages Marian worship - correct? Devout Marian worshippers, de facto or otherwise, should be expected to toe the line, in terms of obedience to the CC, regarding such things - correct? Christians belonging to the CC only, are to defer to the teaching office of the CC, as opposed to the de facto teachings of the devout Marian worshippers - correct?
 
Just to be fair, you may want to explain Marian worship first though. While Marian devotion is pretty much a way of life for many Catholics, Marian worship is not and that needs deeper understanding and explanation for ordinary Catholics in order to avoid misunderstanding of it.
👍 Our blessed Mother, Mary was a critical factor in my conversion, to be absolutely honest. I have a huge devotion to our blessed Mother, Mary. To explain concisely: I have always been a doubting Thomas, so to speak, and it was the various Marian apparitions that had a huge impact on me, in terms of belief in Jesus, specifically, the children in Fatima and and Bernadette in Lourdes. I have read the works of almost all of the saints that have been touched by either Jesus or Mary, in terms of private revelation, and they have freed me of any and all doubts that I was once plagued by, constantly. Garabandal, although not approved by the CC also played a big role; those events are mind-boggling in my opinion.
 
I am sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about my friend. :confused:

We agree that the Magisterium adamantly discourages Marian worship - correct? Devout Marian worshippers, de facto or otherwise, should be expected to toe the line, in terms of obedience to the CC, regarding such things - correct? Christians belonging to the CC only, are to defer to the teaching office of the CC, as opposed to the de facto teachings of the devout Marian worshippers - correct?
Sorry you are confused.

Yes, we agree on what the Magesterium says. But you mistake me, perhaps, for someone who thinks that that is either a valid, true, or especially useful standard by which to measure Reality. Therefor my questions, and your lack of “getting” them. You may not even wish to converse with me about this. That is fine. I’m just saying that there may yet be for you a truer and far more useful standard than accepting such a body as Ultimate Truth. Or not. Up to you.
 
Novart;10218958]Sorry you are confused.
Yes, we agree on what the Magesterium says. But you mistake me, perhaps, for someone who thinks that that is either a valid, true, or especially useful standard by which to measure Reality. Therefor my questions, and your lack of “getting” them.
No CC teaching office in terms of being a useful standard by which to measure Reality? OK. 🙂
I’m just saying that there may yet be for you a truer and far more useful standard than accepting such a body as Ultimate Truth. Or not. Up to you.
Well, you can’t just leave me hanging. LOL…Suggestions brother…:)?
 
👍 Our blessed Mother, Mary was a critical factor in my conversion, to be absolutely honest. I have a huge devotion to our blessed Mother, Mary. To explain concisely: I have always been a doubting Thomas, so to speak, and it was the various Marian apparitions that had a huge impact on me, in terms of belief in Jesus, specifically, the children in Fatima and and Bernadette in Lourdes. I have read the works of almost all of the saints that have been touched by either Jesus or Mary, in terms of private revelation, and they have freed me of any and all doubts that I was once plagued by, constantly. Garabandal, although not approved by the CC also played a big role; those events are mind-boggling in my opinion.
👍

If I may as to be so bold, I would say it is impossible for Catholics not love Mary with especially what the Church have for her in doctrine and traditions. Admittedly for some though I cannot say for all, perhaps the more intelligent converts would understand the concept of Marian doctrine better than us cradle Catholics. For us it is more of cultural practices until we are sufficiently well-versed in its knowledge.

It is for this reason that Marian devotion can go overboard where the lines of veneration and worship have become blurred and merged. This is somewhat dangerous for the unknowing but great grace for the knowledgeable. As long as there is no confusion on the two, the Mother of God is certainly a great gift for mankind notwithstanding that she was given by her son himself to us all.
 
👍

If I may as to be so bold, I would say it is impossible for Catholics not love Mary with especially what the Church have for her in doctrine and traditions. Admittedly for some though I cannot say for all, perhaps the more intelligent converts would understand the concept of Marian doctrine better than us cradle Catholics. For us it is more of cultural practices until we are sufficiently well-versed in its knowledge.

It is for this reason that Marian devotion can go overboard where the lines of veneration and worship have become blurred and merged. This is somewhat dangerous for the unknowing but great grace for the knowledgeable. As long as there is no confusion on the two, the Mother of God is certainly a great gift for mankind notwithstanding that she was given by her son himself to us all.
Agreed. :)👍
 
No CC teaching office in terms of being a useful standard by which to measure Reality? OK. 🙂

Well, you can’t just leave me hanging. LOL…Suggestions brother…:)?
I’m one of those weirdos who got interested in Church history and couldn’t avoid concluding that Christianity is a misinterpretation by political popularization in the third century of a non duality Teaching that was the actually what Jesus was about. No direct evidence from Biblical sources, and especially not with good reason, from orthodox Church sources, but back forming from the consistency of that Teaching before and after Him, and its congruence with what He allegedly said. Given the direction of Catholic and other mystics, and especially the exquisite analysis, including Catholic authors, of one former Carmelite Bernadette Roberts, and personal experience, I’m pretty sure about that. I’m quite convinced that as a race we will eventually realize that this system is in fact an accurate description of our human DOS, corresponding to being made “In His Image and Likeness.” I see that many people who give serious consideration to the premises of non dualism coupled with honest* self inquiry find that their interior evidence supports this. Go figure.

*This means suspension of the disbelief due to habituated Christianity.
 
Novart;10219553]I’m one of those weirdos who got interested in Church history and couldn’t avoid concluding that Christianity is a misinterpretation by political popularization in the third century of a non duality Teaching that was the actually what Jesus was about.
Ok. 🙂
No direct evidence from Biblical sources, and especially not with good reason, from orthodox Church sources, but back forming from the consistency of that Teaching before and after Him, and its congruence with what He allegedly said. Given the direction of Catholic and other mystics, and especially the exquisite analysis, including Catholic authors, of one former Carmelite Bernadette Roberts, and personal experience, I’m pretty sure about that. I’m quite convinced that as a race we will eventually realize that this system is in fact an accurate description of our human DOS, corresponding to being made “In His Image and Likeness.” I see that many people who give serious consideration to the premises of non dualism coupled with honest* self inquiry find that their interior evidence supports this. Go figure.
*This means suspension of the disbelief due to habituated Christianity.
OK. Any suggestions regarding post 168?
 
Ok. 🙂
OK. Any suggestions regarding post 168?
You mean do I have any suggestions for you, something to read or do? Not really. We are perfectly where we wish and need to be, believe it or not. Each on’es personality simply runs its course till you see clearly by the Grace of what we unfortunately call “God.” It is immeasurably greater than that Title implies, and we limit immeasurably by what we have learned to attach to that symbol.

One can to some extent prepare the mind to receive grace by ardent work, prayer if you will, aimed at adoration of what is beyond thought, and as a corollary, questioning what it is that is conscious. But even that may not do much. It is not in our hands, so to speak, as far as I know.

The transforamative experience which Bernadette Roberts recorded could be useful, starting from her pre-Carmelite days, or a similar secular one by Franklin Merrell-Wolff. As an overview of related ideas, a simple and profound short work by Jac O’Keefe does well. Beyond that, there are thousands of years of writings that are available, and current living proponents.

The thing is, you see, that due to our limited exposure to the actual spectrum of understandings of our possible experience, the Church is superb at book learning. Unfortunately, God is not in a book, nor is much of an intellectual happening, though that is not apart from it, though only in a preparatory and then a post experiential way.

So unless you are intimate with Mystics, Catholic or otherwise, you won’t get much but dogma, which may be a great start, but only goes so far, mostly in ineffective behavior modification. The real work, on the other hand, can be discovered to have already been done, the trick being to get one’s infantile prejudices of what constitute you, God, and the relationship of those two out of the way. That would mean everything one has been tought since childhood.

Perhaps that confuses you more, and if it does, I’m not surprised. The whole endeavor is very much like discovering how to look at one of those magic pictures: it all looks like static until you look correctly, and then there is a 3-D phenomenon before your eyes. Then you can switch back and forth at will, and be a religionist if it pleases you, but a competent one, based in real experience as distinct from book learning.

But then you have to wear protective coloration in many instances or they will crucify you, burn you for a witch, or do other unpleasant inquisitorial things to you, even in our “advanced” society. The line is pretty sharp between those who go by the book and fear and those who see beyond the veil of intellect and experience, even though there are degrees and kinds along the way.

The Church stops its public approval a bit short of the goal. Ask St Teresa of Avila. They burned some of her work before realizing she was a Doctor of the Church, right? Very common story, though you won’t hear it much. But a few always get through, lol! 🙂

What does all that have to do with Marian devotion/worship? Simply that it can be found under proper scrutiny of the Soul propensity that the symbolism we are taught is only a partial carrier of ideas regarding our full(er) possible understanding of Deity and its putable relationship to Man/Soul.
 
You mean do I have any suggestions for you…

What does all that have to do with Marian devotion/worship? Simply that it can be found under proper scrutiny of the Soul propensity that the symbolism we are taught is only a partial carrier of ideas regarding our full(er) possible understanding of Deity and its putable relationship to Man/Soul.
Perhaps you could you simplify that…?

BTW, you said:
Yes, we agree on what the Magesterium says. But you mistake me, perhaps, for someone who thinks that that is either a valid, true, or especially useful standard by which to measure Reality.
So, the teaching office of the Catholic Church, in your opinion, is not a valid, true, or especially useful standard by which to measure reality, regarding only the teachings of Jesus the Christ. OK.

Any suggestions? 🙂
 
Perhaps you could you simplify that…?
I don’t know. Symbols carry meaning by being metaphors for their referents. The Mary metaphor, whatever the Church might wish it to be, is incomplete as to the potential it has to carry greater significance relative to an aspect of Deity.
BTW, you said:
So, the teaching office of the Catholic Church, in your opinion, is not a valid, true, or especially useful standard by which to measure reality, regarding only the teachings of Jesus the Christ. OK.
Any suggestions? 🙂
Well, regarding a common consensus about the teachings of Jesus derived by a lesser understanding than His and legitimized by recourse to validation by an unprovable, at least by intellectual means. So it is all, teachings’ interpretations and all, primarily conjecture and only somewhat useful as a signpost to discovery. It is not an end in itself, but in my opinion, in successful cases, serves as a koan of sorts. No disrespect meant; I’m only trying to point out the image making ability of the mind and how it is necessarily a buffer in terms of relating to something that isn’t one’s own self.

One has to go, if one wishes, beyond the vast majority of what is common religious lore and practice to really get anywhere in terms of Understanding. That is why I so admire some Catholic mystics, and not so much others of the same faith, remarkable as their accomplishment was. Due, perhaps to their investment in the structure suggested by their belief, they stopped short of the final possible step.
 
Novart;10223387]I don’t know. Symbols carry meaning by being metaphors for their referents. The Mary metaphor, whatever the Church might wish it to be, is incomplete as to the potential it has to carry greater significance relative to an aspect of Deity.
We were talking about Marian worship, and the fact that it is wrong, and should not be done - right?
Well, regarding a common consensus about the teachings of Jesus derived by a lesser understanding than His and legitimized by recourse to validation by an unprovable, at least by intellectual means. So it is all, teachings’ interpretations and all, primarily conjecture and only somewhat useful as a signpost to discovery. It is not an end in itself, but in my opinion, in successful cases, serves as a koan of sorts. No disrespect meant; I’m only trying to point out the image making ability of the mind and how it is necessarily a buffer in terms of relating to something that isn’t one’s own self.
One has to go, if one wishes, beyond the vast majority of what is common religious lore and practice to really get anywhere in terms of Understanding. That is why I so admire some Catholic mystics, and not so much others of the same faith, remarkable as their accomplishment was. Due, perhaps to their investment in the structure suggested by their belief, they stopped short of the final possible step.
I did not see an actual answer to the following:

So, the teaching office of the Catholic Church, in your opinion, is not a valid, true, or especially useful standard by which to measure reality, regarding only the teachings of Jesus the Christ. OK.

What is, specifically? 🙂
 
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