"simulating" Mass?

[Monica4316]

I read in a blog that it’s a grave sin if you are “attempting the liturgical action of the Eucharistic sacrifice or the simulation thereof”. I think this is from Canon Law.

Hypothetical scenario: what if you were just making an example to explain to someone what the priest does, not intending it to be seen as you trying to consecrate a host??

any thoughts?

 

[Godfollower]

I read in a blog that it’s a grave sin if you are “attempting the liturgical action of the Eucharistic sacrifice or the simulation thereof”. I think this is from Canon Law.

Hypothetical scenario: what if you were just making an example to explain to someone what the priest does, not intending it to be seen as you trying to consecrate a host??

any thoughts?

Nothing wrong with that. In fact, priests sometimes do a “teaching Mass” for the purpose of explaining the parts of the liturgy. What’s prohibited is causing someone else to believe that it’s real – because then they’ll act under the incorrect impression that they’ve received that sacrament.

And, by the way, it isn’t just simulating a Mass. It’s any sacrament:

Can. 1378 §1. A priest who acts against the prescript of can. 977 incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See.

§2. The following incur a latae sententiae penalty of interdict or, if a cleric, a latae sententiae penalty of suspension:

1/ a person who attempts the liturgical action of the Eucharistic sacrifice though not promoted to the sacerdotal order;

2/ apart from the case mentioned in §1, a person who, though unable to give sacramental absolution validly, attempts to impart it or who hears sacramental confession.

§3. In the cases mentioned in §2, other penalties, not excluding excommunication, can be added according to the gravity of the delict.

Can. 1379 In addition to the cases mentioned in can. 1378, a person who simulates the administration of a sacrament is to be punished with a just penalty.

Code of Canon Law, Canons 1378-79.

 

[familyof4]

Got it! I believe that this is in reference to Canon law 1378 (my google-fu is strong tonight).

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P54.HTM

If you were enacting something to show what was happening, I think you’re safe. You’re not really trying to enact a mass. Attempting to do an entire mass, or Liturgy of the Eucharist as if you were a priest would be a problem.

So-- a young boy pretending to be a priest would not be a problem. Which is good, since when my son was seven, he wanted to be a priest, and once or twice had a “mass” for us. He outgrew it (but who knows, maybe he’ll be called). If he was 13 and still wanting to pretend to consecrate a mass, I’d have a problem on my hands.

 

[trickster]

This posting is interesting because “how” does one “simulate” Mass? The discussion was about unconsecrated hosts, right?

Is it possible to have a ceremony, or service, NOTE NOT A MASS then? I have been thinking about a number of projects that are “mass like” but not a Mass as they would not feature or interact with a consecrated host.

Thoughts?

Bruce Ferguson or
Trickster

 

[Ana_v]

What about a simulation for the purpose of filming a movie that contains a celebration of t he Mass scene?

(Granted, the actors are perfectly aware that they are not actually participating in a Mass).

 

[Ohana]

I think lots of Catholic kids did this. My cousin was always the priest. I think we had a requiem for his pet bird, and also other times. Necco wafers served as hosts. We knew it wasn’t real, just imitating the grownups. I think many of us cousins had not yet made first communion.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

There is something called a “dry Mass” that is used for teaching purposes, such as in seminaries, where all the necessary items are used except bread and wine. It is understood by everyone present that a Mass is not taking place. “Simulation” of a sacrament involves deception, such as one who is not a priest attempting to say Mass before an unsuspecting congregation.

It also can be where a non-priest attempts to say Mass before a congregation who knows he isn’t a priest but concurs with his (or her) actions. This actually happened in a remote western parish, where a priest came only once a month for Mass. A layperson created a Mass-like liturgy which included the use of priest’s vestments and the attempted consecration of bread and wine. When their newly-installed bishop discovered this, he immediately appointed a full-time pastor for that parish. The seriously-undercatechised parishioners then complained to the bishop that they preferred the lay-led simulated “Mass” over their new pastor.

 

[trickster]

What is the history of the quoted Canon too…like what was the context for its creation?

Bruce

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

I simulate mass everyday. And there is nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath in your own home. I consecrate bread and wine everyday and receive them in prayer. My offering is as valid as any of yours.

 

[trickster]

I simulate mass everyday. And there is nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath in your own home. I consecrate bread and wine everyday and receive them in prayer. My offering is as valid as any of yours.

I agree with you Sacred Heart! Totally… I am not sure what you mean by “consecrate” bread … I assume you don’t mean in a transubstantive way? But in terms of a personal spiritual practice, right?

Bruce
Trickster

 

[trickster]

There is something called a “dry Mass” that is used for teaching purposes, such as in seminaries, where all the necessary items are used except bread and wine. It is understood by everyone present that a Mass is not taking place. “Simulation” of a sacrament involves deception, such as one who is not a priest attempting to say Mass before an unsuspecting congregation.

It also can be where a non-priest attempts to say Mass before a congregation who knows he isn’t a priest but concurs with his (or her) actions. This actually happened in a remote western parish, where a priest came only once a month for Mass. A layperson created a Mass-like liturgy which included the use of priest’s vestments and the attempted consecration of bread and wine. When their newly-installed bishop discovered this, he immediately appointed a full-time pastor for that parish. The seriously-undercatechised parishioners then complained to the bishop that they preferred the lay-led simulated “Mass” over their new pastor.

That is extremely interesting! However, if there is a 'mass like" project where there was no deception and purely symbolic…do you think that would be wrong? I am interested too in the dynamics of a group of parishioners who would make a choice for a lay led mass…that is interesting…and not necessarily contradictory to having this mass and the consecrated mass as comlimentary things that could provide spiritual nourishment…

Thoughts?

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

 

[trickster]

That is extremely interesting! However, if there is a 'mass like" project where there was no deception and purely symbolic…do you think that would be wrong? I am interested too in the dynamics of a group of parishioners who would make a choice for a lay led mass…that is interesting…and not necessarily contradictory to having this mass and the consecrated mass as comlimentary things that could provide spiritual nourishment…

Thoughts?

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

Let me clarify that I am not sure if this would be necessarily contradictory…

Bruce

 

[LilyM]

I simulate mass everyday. And there is nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath in your own home. I consecrate bread and wine everyday and receive them in prayer. My offering is as valid as any of yours.

Unless you believe that your bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ after you pray over them, I’d not use the word ‘consecrate’. What you do as a layperson is VERY different from what the priest does, and your offering orders of magnitude different from his as a result, so different terminology is called for.

Catholics only use the word ‘consecrate/d’ in the context of confecting the Eucharist at Mass, the ordination of priests or the blessing of a Church or chapel, apart from occasional references to ‘consecrated’ religious.

It’s almost like saying we ‘worship’ Mary. In one sense of the word it might be correct to say, but that sense of ‘worship’ is not at all common usage, and can lead to huge and unnecessary misunderstandings, so best not use the word and avoid confusion.

 

[InspiritCarol]

I simulate mass everyday. And there is nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath in your own home. I consecrate bread and wine everyday and receive them in prayer. My offering is as valid as any of yours.

You can not think that Mass may be celerated in your home by you on any day, let alone Sunday, and call yourself a true Catholic.

Your “offering” does not come close to what all is entailed in Mass.

I pray that God gives you the grace of understanding this. It is so very special when you do.

(I don’t think you’re a bad person … just confused and in need of some help in understanding.)

Sorry if I sound harsh, I’m working on it.

 

[trickster]

Unless you believe that your bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ after you pray over them, I’d not use the word ‘consecrate’. What you do as a layperson is VERY different from what the priest does, and your offering orders of magnitude different from his as a result, so different terminology is called for.

Catholics only use the word ‘consecrate/d’ in the context of confecting the Eucharist at Mass, the ordination of priests or the blessing of a Church or chapel, apart from occasional references to ‘consecrated’ religious.

It’s almost like saying we ‘worship’ Mary. In one sense of the word it might be correct to say, but that sense of ‘worship’ is not at all common usage, and can lead to huge and unnecessary misunderstandings, so best not use the word and avoid confusion.

Thanks LilyM that confirms my understanding of what I was trying to say to Sacred_Heart…good stuff…

Trickster
Bruce FErguson

 

[Monica4316]

I simulate mass everyday. And there is nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath in your own home. I consecrate bread and wine everyday and receive them in prayer. My offering is as valid as any of yours.

what do you mean by consecrate? Only the priest can offer the eternal Sacrifice to the Father in Mass and consecrate the bread and wine so they become the Body and Blood of Christ. Being a priest means offering sacrifice, the Sacrifice of the Eucharist. Lay people can not do this, and it’s invalid if we try, because there is no Eucharist if we pray over bread and wine.

I agree with you Sacred Heart! Totally… I am not sure what you mean by “consecrate” bread … I assume you don’t mean in a transubstantive way? But in terms of a personal spiritual practice, right?

Bruce
Trickster

Even as a personal spiritual practice, I don’t understand, to be honest… isn’t it better to have the actual Mass? if we pray over bread and wine, that’s much the same as saying grace before meals.

 

[Monica4316]

…

 

[trickster]

what do you mean by consecrate? Only the priest can offer the eternal Sacrifice to the Father in Mass and consecrate the bread and wine so they become the Body and Blood of Christ. Being a priest means offering sacrifice, the Sacrifice of the Eucharist. Lay people can not do this, and it’s invalid if we try, because there is no Eucharist if we pray over bread and wine.

Even as a personal spiritual practice, I don’t understand, to be honest… isn’t it better to have the actual Mass? if we pray over bread and wine, that’s much the same as saying grace before meals.

Monica, in terms of your second point responding to me…of course…it only makes sense to have the real mass…however, there are no limits to personal and/or even group construction of services, ceremony, etc., that reflect certain things…as long as those initiatives are not contradictory to church teaching…the idea of a symbolic communion is common place to many protestant denominations…so I don’t see any problem personally with incorporating it into your spiritual life…but I agree with you, not sure why one - who is Catholic - would do that?

Bruce

 

[x1980x]

This posting is interesting because “how” does one “simulate” Mass? The discussion was about unconsecrated hosts, right?

Is it possible to have a ceremony, or service, NOTE NOT A MASS then? I have been thinking about a number of projects that are “mass like” but not a Mass as they would not feature or interact with a consecrated host.

Thoughts?

Bruce Ferguson or
Trickster

perhaps e.g.:

“George Washington Middle School presents: ‘The Mass: A Dramatization’ by Mr. Henry’s Drama Class. Please note that this is a theatrical presentation and is not a valid Catholic Eucharist.”

 

[zab]

I agree with you Sacred Heart! Totally… I am not sure what you mean by “consecrate” bread … I assume you don’t mean in a transubstantive way? But in terms of a personal spiritual practice, right?

Bruce
Trickster

I don’t agree with him/her at all. He is just confusing the issue by using the word “consecrate” , the word we use to describe the priest’s action for changing the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.