Sin and Confession prior to Vatican II

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I am preparing to give a talk on Sin, and this afternoon, one of our priests revealed that prior to V2, Confession was much different. The priest actually had a book containing a list of sins, apparently penances were somehow divined from this.

I’ve done a few web searches, finding nothing of use. So I’m wondering if anyone can tell me about pre-Vat II confession practices, both among the laity and the clergy.

How has Confession changed?
 
In the early Church penances could be harsh, some lasting for months or even years. Also, the absolution was only given AFTER a penance had been completed.

I think this changed even before Vatican II, though.
 
JCPhoenix said:
I am preparing to give a talk on Sin, and this afternoon, one of our priests revealed that prior to V2, Confession was much different. The priest actually had a book containing a list of sins, apparently penances were somehow divined from this.

I’ve done a few web searches, finding nothing of use. So I’m wondering if anyone can tell me about pre-Vat II confession practices, both among the laity and the clergy.

How has Confession changed?
Click to expand...
There was no “Book of Sins” That I’m aware of.
 
I’ve never heard it. In the really scholastic days (like the 1200s-1300s) they would rank sins according to gravity and give penances accordingly. But, this was when penances were much harsher than a few prayers. Of course, this all gradually changed very well before Vatican II.
 
JCPhoenix said:
I am preparing to give a talk on Sin, and this afternoon, one of our priests revealed that prior to V2, Confession was much different. The priest actually had a book containing a list of sins, apparently penances were somehow divined from this.

I’ve done a few web searches, finding nothing of use. So I’m wondering if anyone can tell me about pre-Vat II confession practices, both among the laity and the clergy.

How has Confession changed?
Click to expand...
I believe the books he was referring to are called “Penitentials,” and they were guides for confessors as to sins, their gravity, and appropriate penances. I think the most well-known of these were the “Irish Penitentials” - which I believe are medieval.

That said, I think their use might have been in the seminary before V II as training for future confessors, but not in “the box.” I spent a fair amount of time, every First Thursday, in “the box” compliments of the Good Nuns during the 1950’s and early 1960’s, and on the priest’s side it was clearly too dark for him to have been reading anything during a confession; you could even hear him turning the light out sometimes. Of course, the confessions of middle school / high school boys probably had a certain sameness that eliminated the need to consult any reference manuals.

Other than the face-to-face option (and the name change), I wouldn’t say that Confession / Reconciliation was much different before V II.
 
JCPhoenix said:
I am preparing to give a talk on Sin, and this afternoon, one of our priests revealed that prior to V2, Confession was much different. The priest actually had a book containing a list of sins, apparently penances were somehow divined from this.

I’ve done a few web searches, finding nothing of use. So I’m wondering if anyone can tell me about pre-Vat II confession practices, both among the laity and the clergy.

How has Confession changed?
Click to expand...
As I recall my history classes of 50+ years ago, during the Black Death [14th century] the loss of clergy was especially high, due to their ministration to the dying. It was necessary to replace them with many who were less capable. Such lists of sins and penances were issued at that time to compensate for their deficiencies. Not an ideal situation, but better than going without confessors.
 
How old is your priest?

There have always been pastoral guides for hearing confessions. Go to the Library of Congress web catalog and look up “Confession.” Trained as an Episcopal Priest, I found an old book from the 1930s, A Manual for Confessors, a helpful introduction for the ins and outs of hearing confessions and assigning penances.
 
Thanks, everyone

The priest I spoke with (in a very brief conversation) is 30’s-40’s, late vocation, so has only been ordained a few years. He’s very solid, just a great priest.

Anyway, he didn’t give me a lot of info, just touched on the subject. The topic I’m supposed to speak on is “The new view of sin”. I’d sent him an e-mail asking him if this was a “Spirit of V 2” thing, and he wondered if it maybe referred to old penitential practices. Then he mentioned the book that was used.

He thought the idea was fascinating.

I’m aware of the severe penances of the early church, and how Pope St.Leo the Great put the quabash on the practice, enforcing secret, private confession and penances, coming down harshly on the bishops who would promote the public confessions, etc.

From what Father said today, it sounded like the other practices were closer to our times, maybe not immediately before V2, but more recent thatn the early Church.

Does anyone know of any resources discussing the book?

I will check out the Library of Congress.

Thanks@
 
I grew up pre-Vatican II, and went to college post Vatican II. In my experience, confession has hardly changed at all, except for an increased option for face to face confession.

The confessionals were too dark for either the priest or the penitents to be reading from books. The form of confession was pretty much the same as it is now. I use the same act of contrition now as I did then; and the general format remains the same. There are a few minor variations in use. The absolution is said in English rather than Latin. But it is basically the same.

Those ‘penitentiary books,’ as Joe Kelley mentioned, were used in the 14th century when priests had little education. But that is hardly what most people mean by pre-Vatican II days.

Does this young priest think that we went suddenly from medieval practices to post-Vatican II practices?! This shows a lack of knowledge of recent history.
 
Here’s the fruit of just one click on the Library of Congress site. I used “Catholic confession” as the search term.

I would start from scratch and ignore what your priest has said since he wasn’t even born when the so-called changes took place.

Ask a priest who’s been a priest for 50 or 60 years. He’ll be a better anecdotal source.
 
Here’s an anecdote reflecting one priest’s observation on “changes” – particularly face-to-face confession. This was in response to a comment someone had made that people “shoud” go face-to-face.

You hear better confessions in the box.
 
OK, everyone, let me be very clear, because our priest is now being assumed to be ignorant.

I apologize if I gave that impression, as I am the one who is ignorant; I am the one asking the question.

The conversation with my priest was VERY BRIEF, only SECONDS on this topic., he mentioned this old form of confession, and it was MY impression that it was closer to our century that this had occurred. He did not give me a time frame; we did not discuss this long enough for him to have done so. Further, our conversation was very general.

Please refrain from inflicting these judgments upon my priest; inflict them upon me instead. All he provided was a seed for me to research, a mention of another time in history. So you see, by coming here after a fruitless initial web search, I AM starting from scratch.

Our priest did not say anything specific about V2, that assumption was all mine and mine alone.

Thanks for the link, Mercy Gate, it didn’t provide any “results” , rather just a “timed out” message, but I’ll use the linke to complete a search myself.

Thanks for the comments, everyone!
 
Sorry to cast aspersions on your priest (or you.) I shouldn’t be jumping to conclusions! OK, where is that confessional box?
 
JCPhoenix said:
I am preparing to give a talk on Sin, and this afternoon, one of our priests revealed that prior to V2, Confession was much different. The priest actually had a book containing a list of sins, apparently penances were somehow divined from this.

I’ve done a few web searches, finding nothing of use. So I’m wondering if anyone can tell me about pre-Vat II confession practices, both among the laity and the clergy.

How has Confession changed?
Click to expand...
My first confession was July 1957. I remember that all would go to confession before receiving Holy Communion. That my friend is the only difference; confession seems optional now for most, IMHO.
 
JimG, You can cast aspersions on me if you wish…I would be the one to deserve it! LOL Speaking the truth on that particular matter would not require seeking the confession box (although that’s clearly between you and God…) 😃

CRW ~ I think it seems that way in many parishes. I attend a very large parish, and not only do we have many daily Masses, we also have confession available after each Mass and twice on Saturday, besides by appointment. All of our priests encourage Confession; all have spoken of it, and of course, the number of people who avail themselves of the Sacrament are a great testimony to others.

When we have the bi-annual mass-confessions, there are so many priests available for most of the day, and the church is PACKED with people seeking absolution. It’s just beautiful.

I wish everyone understood the grace of Confession.

Author’s note: By “mass-confessions” I DO NOT MEAN “GENERAL ABSOLUTION!” In order for that to occur, a bomb would have to be dropping on us and the end of the world imminent. I refer only to the INDIVIDUAL confessions
 
Not being a church historian or particularly knowledgeable about what texts are studied in seminaries, I will still say that while there might have been some kind of book on recommended penances, there was not the kind of consistency in penances given that would lead one to think the priests were giving them “by the book”. Before VII, you could go to confession to ten different priests, confess the very same thing and get ten entirely different penances. I really think priests “called them like they saw them” then, the same way they do not. The only difference I see between pre VII and post VII penances is that the latter are generally substantially lighter. But as reluctant as so many seem to be to go to confession at all, I can’t say I blame the priests for that. I will add that pre VII, you would sometimes get a royal bawling out from a priest in confession; something I have not gotten in many years. In general, I think priests try to be kinder now in confession. I still don’t like the face-to-face thing, though, which I think really does discourage people from going.
 
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