Sin and Forgiveness

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GratefulFred

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“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

Has anyone read a good comprehensive book and sin and forgiveness? Theory is one thing. It seems there is first an equality of trespass and then an equality of forgiveness.

Malicious gossip (character assassination), dishonesty in business tranactions, emotional or physical abuse, and other horrid acts, are far beyond the normal range of equality of trespass.

If the trespasser is not contrite and does not ask for forgiveness, what are we to do?

If the prior trust has been shattered, are we obligated to try and trust someone who is no longer trust worthy? Some trespassers have no intention or real ability to change and their statements are little more than lies to preserve their ability to continue to sin against us.

We are to live with each others’ faults, but it seems that there is a degree of risk we should not take in our effort to turn the other cheek.

How does one handle the difficult situations without undue acceptance of risk and yet without undue failure to forgive as Christ would have us forgive?

I would imagine there are many folks who are struggling with such issues.
 
GratefulFred said:
If the trespasser is not contrite and does not ask for forgiveness, what are we to do?
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[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 18:15-17[/BIBLEDRB]
If the prior trust has been shattered, are we obligated to try and trust someone who is no longer trust worthy?
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No, you are not obligated to trust the trespasser. I understand that forgiveness means letting go of any hatred that you might have because of the offense, but we must also understand that there are temporal consequences which may not be so easy to lift.
 
GratefulFred said:
If the trespasser is not contrite and does not ask for forgiveness, what are we to do?
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Forgive them anyway.
If the prior trust has been shattered, are we obligated to try and trust someone who is no longer trust worthy?
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No

We are called to love everyone (work toward their ultimate good) not like everyone. If you cannot quite get over the feelings then tell God “Lord, I choose to forgive” and He will fill in the rest. The next time this person needs your help on the path to holiness, help them. If they never ask then they never ask.
 
Forgiveness doesn’t mean acting as if the sin never happened. Even Our Lord said, once our sinning brother has been rebuked and has refused to listen to all instruction, even from the Church, we can choose to have nothing further to do with them.

Forgiveness DOES mean letting go of bitterness, anger and hatred towards that person. Reminding ourselves that they probably sin for all the same reasons that we do ourselves, and that their sin doesn’t make them any less a person, or less in need of human compassion and God’s healing and mercy, than we are.

It means wishing and praying sincerely for their good, both materially and spiritually. Helping them to achieve that good in any way that won’t confirm or enable them in their sin. That sort of thing.
 
There is a good article in a 2003 issue of This Rock:
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0309bt.asp

This book by evangelical Protestant authors sheds a lot of light on the psychological aspects of forgiveness and why it’s often so hard to forgive:
To Forgive Is Human by Michael E. McCullough, Steven J. Sandage, Everett L. Worthington Jr.
 
GratefulFred said:
“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

Has anyone read a good comprehensive book and sin and forgiveness? Theory is one thing. It seems there is first an equality of trespass and then an equality of forgiveness.

Malicious gossip (character assassination), dishonesty in business tranactions, emotional or physical abuse, and other horrid acts, are far beyond the normal range of equality of trespass.

If the trespasser is not contrite and does not ask for forgiveness, what are we to do?

If the prior trust has been shattered, are we obligated to try and trust someone who is no longer trust worthy? Some trespassers have no intention or real ability to change and their statements are little more than lies to preserve their ability to continue to sin against us.

We are to live with each others’ faults, but it seems that there is a degree of risk we should not take in our effort to turn the other cheek.

How does one handle the difficult situations without undue acceptance of risk and yet without undue failure to forgive as Christ would have us forgive?

I would imagine there are many folks who are struggling with such issues.
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First know that forgiveness is something you do for you, not for the trespasser…it is an act of love to not hold a grudge and allow the other person to be as they are including in a state of sin. Thomas Merton says we are to love without assessing the other person’s worthiness for that love. It is this kind of love that ultimately transforms. Love also means being honest with the other person (and yourself) or detaching with love as the situation warrants for safety or sanity. Finally you must Trust God, Love People…pray for knowledge of God’s will in the situation and the power to act on it.
 
I have heard it put like this and this makes the most sense to me despite its simplicity.

Love the sinner not the sin.
 
Forgivenenss is not the same as reconciliation. Jesus said to those who crucified Him,“Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”. We must embrace that forgiveness in order to be reconciled to God. The same holds true for each other.
 
Until you forgive those who have trespassed against you…Regardless what they have done. You will be hopelessly stuck in that moment. The scar will cover the wound and the thought will become vague with time. But you will never forget it.

Forgiveness is the only solution. Anything else is an inability to deal with our feelings in a appropriate manner. Thus you have no safety from them [feelings]. Amazing how the mind works and how right Christ is.

But yes, Love the Sinner not the Sin, thats the thinking.
 
For many, forgiveness is a difficult virtue to master. When we learn the power and wisdom of forgiveness, we are bound to have reached an advanced level of spiritual maturity. Regardless the nature of any possible abuse that we may have endured, nor the severity of that abuse, full recovery from abuse cannot be achieved until we truly forgive our abuser(s). Any anger or resentment we hold within us, live and thrive within us, and become a part of our very self. We will never rid ourselves of this anger and resentment until we experience true forgiveness towards all. Seeing our tormentors suffer a thousand times over will only add to our own misery.

On the other hand, to endure unnecessary torment and misery is never righteous, but a perversion. Also, the righteousness of forgiveness should never involve our condoning abuse or any other forms of evil.

True forgiveness requires our valuing peace and love above all else. Experiencing forgiveness towards those who have wronged us resembles perfect love more so than perhaps any other human experience. Forgiveness involves recognizing and valuing the potential for love that exists within every human soul, including our own soul. Sins cannot be completely forgiven until we forgive, and find an inner peace with, everyone who has ever wronged us; for every ounce of anger and resentment that we hold against any other(s), there will surely exist an ounce of sin held against us – for harboring anger and resentment within our self is sin.

The Golden Rule states, “do unto others as you would have them do unto you!” Our forgiving everyone, especially those we consider our enemies or adversaries, is to demonstrate to God that we are worthy of His forgiveness. Likewise, to find love for all our enemies and adversaries is to demonstrate to God that we have suffered long enough with our hatred, and we are ready to receive His love.

Again, to experience the true power and wisdom contained within the virtue of forgiveness is to develop great spiritual growth!
 
TheQuestioner said:
Forgive them anyway.

No

We are called to love everyone (work toward their ultimate good) not like everyone. If you cannot quite get over the feelings then tell God “Lord, I choose to forgive” and He will fill in the rest. The next time this person needs your help on the path to holiness, help them. If they never ask then they never ask.
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Hi The Questioner

What about when a person who has Gone round killing people and kills a member of your own family and then kills himself.

Judging by these Circumstances the person that has done this has not been Forgiven by God.
Are we to forgive people who we know have not been forgiven by God.
If yes: Is that not trying to make us better then God.
 
shaky said:
Hi The Questioner

What about when a person who has Gone round killing people and kills a member of your own family and then kills himself.

Judging by these Circumstances the person that has done this has not been Forgiven by God.
Are we to forgive people who we know have not been forgiven by God.
If yes: Is that not trying to make us better then God.
Click to expand...
St John Vianney told a woman whose husband committed suicide ‘never fear, in that moment between the bridge and the water he repented his sin’. Repentance is a change of mind and heart. So it really can happen THAT quickly - in a split second. In less time than it takes anybody to die.

So no, do NOT know that the person you mention hasn’t repented at that last moment of their life, and so been forgiven by God. Or anybody else. No-one.

That’s why, for all its canonisation of tens of thousands of saints who it has declared definitely to be in heaven, the Church has never declared a single person, not Judas, not Hitler, not anybody, to definitely be in hell.
 
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