Sin and Salvation - Protestant view

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allischalmers:
Hi;
What I said was that if God saved you and that is the only way that you will be saved
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Correct, but you have changed verb tenses mid sentence and introduced some ambiguities in the process. What do you mean by saying that IF God SAVED you(past tense) that…you WILL BE(future tense) saved? Do you not believe salvation to be:
  • Immediate
  • Complete
  • Permanent
at the time one comes to faith in Christ?
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allischalmers:
then he promises you eternal life to be with him forever. Yes God wants every one to be saved, every one that he has chosen. Romans 9;21 read it!

forever Baptist
allischalmers
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You are mistaken allis. “The Lord …is patient…not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.” 2Peter 3:9 That is the New Covenant, Gospel message. It may not have been the case in Pharoahs day.
 
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sandusky:
The definition of eternal in scripture is defined mainly on the basis of its usage throughout the gospels and epistles. “Eternal life” is always used in relation to final salvation, in heaven, in the presence of God.

Even the unbeliever has eternal life, but his eternal life is spoken of in terms of eternal condemnation, damnation, cast into outer darkness, etc., and so on, and so forth.
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Hi Sandusky!

My question regarding the “eternal life” quote is this:

Does the word eternal refer to a qualitative or quantitative nature to the life? And, if it is a quality, does it apply to our earthly life, post-earthly life, or both?

Phil

PS How is your study of the ECFs going? I finished “Four Witnesses” by Rod Bennett and some of “The Faith of the Fathers” by Jurgens since our Rom4:5 thread and the "John 6 and the Eucharist thread discussions. I think you indicated that you were looking for essentially the original writings with an academic approach to analysis. I think the first book is probably not what you are looking for - its “ECF-lite”, but the second is more scholarly.
 
I think non-Catholics - and again, let me say I’m not attacking them for those of you who think I am - believe that when our Lord died on the Cross, the sins in the past, present and future would be forgiven so they think, “well, since that’s the case, I guess it means that my sins I will commit in the future wont and will not and can not “kill” my salvation because my Lord died for them even before I commit them so what do I have to worry about?”

It’s like maybe taking full advantage of it and thinking it’s okay to keep on sinning when indeed it ain’t!:nope: In other words, don’t make a good effort to not sin and yet keep on sinning as if they could careless.
 
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kleary:
I had a Fundamentalist girlfriend when I was around 19 years old. She told me that as long as I prayed that prayer and meant it (asking Jesus to come into my heart and save me and be my personal lord and saviour) that it did not matter what I did afterwards.

She was very serious because I was a Catholic who was committing idolatry, witnessing others do it and not telling them about it, worshipping Mary and the Saints, etc. In her mind as she was taught in her Fundamentalist church it did not matter what sin was committed afterwards since Salvation was a gift and Jesus would never take away that gift from me no matter what I did- being since I did nothing to get that free gift there was nothing I could do to have it taken away.

Ken
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So by their theology, once we say the Jesus prayer and accept Jesus into our heart as Lord and Saviour, our sins, past present and future are “paid in full” and have no bearing on our salvation. Therefore, it wouldn’t matter if we worship Mary and the Saints, we can’t loose our salvation no matter what, even if we become Catholic.😉
 
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Ignatius:
So by their theology, once we say the Jesus prayer and accept Jesus into our heart as Lord and Saviour, our sins, past present and future are “paid in full” and have no bearing on our salvation. Therefore, it wouldn’t matter if we worship Mary and the Saints, we can’t loose our salvation no matter what, even if we become Catholic.😉
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Ignatius, you hit on my biggest problem with anti-catholic protestants who believe in OSAS. If they really believe that a person is permanently destined for heaven when one “accepts Jesus as Lord”, how can they possibly deny that many Catholics, if not most, will be in heaven? Even those who some might call “non-practicing” or “lapsed” Catholics most likely have, at some point in their lives, sincerely believed in Jesus as their savior. So what if we consume a wafer we believe to be Jesus in the flesh? So what if we follow the Pope here on Earth? So what if we confess our sins to God through priests? All that is superfluous (in their doctrine) to the core question, which is “did you profess Jesus as Lord”. Yes=eternal security; no=eternal damnation. Even for Catholics.

And yet there are still those who believe the pope is Antichrist and all Catholics are blindly following him to hell. Don’t they see the inherent contradictions?

Peace,
javelin
 
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Philthy:
Hi Sandusky!

My question regarding the “eternal life” quote is this:

Does the word eternal refer to a qualitative or quantitative nature to the life? And, if it is a quality, does it apply to our earthly life, post-earthly life, or both?

Phil
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Hey Phil,

Having never been to heaven, I would hazard a guess and say that it would be a leap forward in both respects. (It certainly sounds better than here. Amen?)

For that reason—it sounds better than here—I would also say it applies exclusively to our post-earthly life.

While faith in Christ resulting in eternal can also mean a better life for some here, it can also mean a harder life for others here, as well.

No matter how good, or difficult things are here, there is no comparison to there (2 Cor 4:16-18).
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Philthy:
PS How is your study of the ECFs going? I finished “Four Witnesses” by Rod Bennett and some of “The Faith of the Fathers” by Jurgens since our Rom4:5 thread and the "John 6 and the Eucharist thread discussions. I think you indicated that you were looking for essentially the original writings with an academic approach to analysis. I think the first book is probably not what you are looking for - its “ECF-lite”, but the second is more scholarly.
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Slowly. Right now, as I have time, I am doing topical reading by going into the indexes of the different Fathers (Ante-Nicene, Nicene, Post-Nicene), and reading on those topics that I am most interested in. The English can be tedious as well at times; in spite of that, it is a blessing.
 
Hello! 🙂

One of your friendly Protestants here! 😃

While I don’t necessarily believe in OSAS I do believe that once you have accepted the gift that God has put before you and said ‘yes’ to Him rather than turning away (and I mean that your REALLY mean it. You are not just doing it to ‘get something out of it for yourself’ but answering His call) it would be hard to give that gift back.

For me, if you are a firm and true believer in Christ you may sin or even let yourself turn your back but you will always fall right back down at His feet. You can’t help it. And God knows this. His love is so strong that the bonds of it are hard to break. This is why, if you fall dead before verbally repenting I believe God still forgives you because He knows that in your heart you knew you were wrong, knew you needed to stop this sin but for whatever human reason you didn’t before you died. Human psychology plays a BIG part in sin. God knows that a young girl who is molested as a child by a family friend is more likely to become promiscuous as an adult because of the severe scars left by that person. How can He severely punish someone for the torture that was imposed on them?

Some people ‘get saved’ for selfish and wrong reasons. Their faith is not ‘real’. Now, I cannot say who these people are because only God can see your heart but I do believe that this happens. Those who do not TRULY seek Him but only seek the comfort and ‘warm fuzzy feelings’ (as we protestants are so often accused of ONLY doing :rolleyes: ) find it harder to keep that passion or that path straight because they do not know Him. They only seek what they can get out of the relationship not what they can give. Once the relationship becomes one sided (as we even find out in human relationships) it fades and the person will turn away from God because He did not give them everything they think they deserve. Leaving that empty proclomation of faith dangling for all of the vultures out there who judge who is christian and who isn’t. These people, I would think, aren’t truly saved but just looking to ‘use’ God to their specifications.

If your heart TRULY seeks Him you may not be able to stop sinning but, because God knows your heart, He can see who you truly are. I, myself, don’t think that God spends His time above checking every little sin you do and then dings you for any of them that your ‘forget’ to ask forgivness for. God doesn’t expect perfection but He does expect us to TRY. 🙂
 
We had this discussion at work today (not to worry, it was all friendly). I left it completely confused on OSAS. My co-worker was basically saying that all you need is to be saved. He also brought up Jesus’ commands, like “feed my sheep,” “feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, etc,” so I asked him about these things. My question was, is it necessary to do what Jesus commands in order to be saved? He said no, there is no sin we can commit, no action we can take. Is this really true? Are we allowed to disregard our Lord’s commands because we’ve been saved?

My other co-worker pointed out that if a person is truly saved they will naturally turn away from sin as best they can and naturally try to do good works, but when pressed, also said that these things aren’t actually necessary for salvation. At that point we had to get back to work, b/c my Catholic brain hurt trying to bend my mind around that idea. 🙂 Maybe one of you knowledgeable protestants can help me out.
 
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Ignatius:
So by their theology, once we say the Jesus prayer and accept Jesus into our heart as Lord and Saviour, our sins, past present and future are “paid in full” and have no bearing on our salvation. Therefore, it wouldn’t matter if we worship Mary and the Saints, we can’t loose our salvation no matter what, even if we become Catholic.😉
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I believe that if a person became Catholic and worshiped Mary and the Saints after ‘being saved’ they would say that we were never really saved in the first place. That seems to be their answer( loophole?) when someone who was saved commits a serious sin and doesn’t repent.

Michelle
 
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AquinasXVI:
Reading this entire thread just makes me even more thankful for the common sense and absolute necessity of having the Sacrament of Reconciliation…it is biblically and historically clear, conscise, humiliating, edifying and gratefully liberating. It is sad that non catholics criticize this Catholic sacrament yet their conscience looks for it and gets somewhat satisfied in their own denom’s way of dealing with sin (whether in their theology of OSAS or a makeshift imitation of the Sacrament of Reconcilliation). But as Catholics who can trace the laying of hands all the way back to the 12 apostles, there’s a solid comfort that when the priest says " I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit"…we know it to be true…no questions asked, clean as the day of Baptism
in XT.
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AMEN!
 
Hello again
I would like to go back where someone quoted scripture, God is not wiiling that any should perish. This is true, however God knows that without his personal intervention into a persons life no one will ever be save. God intervenes in some peoples life and not others. I do not claim to know the reason why, who can know what standard the god uses to pick who will be saved and who will not. However here is a clue, Isaiah 55:8 and following **" For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither your ways my ways, saith the Lord, For as the heavens are higher than the mountians, so are my ways higher than you ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. **

Forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
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allischalmers:
Hello again
I would like to go back where someone quoted scripture, God is not wiiling that any should perish. This is true, however God knows that without his personal intervention into a persons life no one will ever be save. God intervenes in some peoples life and not others.
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You are missing the whole point allis: God can’t both will that ALL come to salvation AND exclude irrevocably some from the possibility of salvation. That is a contradiction and makes God a liar.
You do not know that God intervenes in some lives and not in others. In fact, I would say that such a statement is heretical. Jesus Christ died for all of humanity, and in that respect everyone has had God “intervene” in their lives.
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allischalmers:
I do not claim to know the reason why, who can know what standard the god uses to pick who will be saved and who will not. However here is a clue, Isaiah 55:8 and following **" For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither your ways my ways, saith the Lord, For as the heavens are higher than the mountians, so are my ways higher than you ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
Forever Baptist
allischalmers **
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Yes its wonderful that you can admit that you do not understand God’s ways. But pulling this verse out of thin air accomplishes nothing in terms of this discussion. Not only do you not have an understanding of God’s ways, but you cant even reconcile what God has revealed in Scripture with what you claim to be a truth regarding God. You don’t need to figure God out for us, you just need to explain how it is that God’s word says he wishes all men to have life, yet you claim that he doesn’t intervene in the lives of some and thereby leaves them without the possibility of life.
As a good first step, **lets pretend that you don’t actually know that God doesn’t intervene in the lives of some and have you prove it to us. ** Because as it stands, you simply pulled that thought out of thin air. Ready? Go!
 
Reading St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine really helped me out on this. They explain it in terms of antecedent and consequent will: God’s antecedent will is that all men be saved, however we observe that not all men are saved, which means God has permitted some not to be saved for some greater good that we don’t know or understand (consequent will). The analogy used is that God’s antecedent will is that the plants and animals be fruitful and multiply, but we know that droughts and disease happen, causing plants and/or animals to die or not reproduce, which God permits for some greater good.

Allis, I used to be a Calvinist, and I was always bothered by the Calvinist teaching that God simply withholds grace from people, so they cannot repent and turn to Christ, yet hold them accountable for their lack of repentance. That seemed at odds to me with God’s justice and mercy. The fact that God desires the salvation of all men tells me it must be at least *possible *for all men to be saved, even if all men aren’t ultimately saved. I believe Catholic teaching provides an answer where Calvinism doesn’t: God provides *sufficient *grace for all men to be saved, but His grace is *efficacious *for the elect.
 
Hi again.
In answer to philthy’s post. First I am sorry that you get upset when some writes that God will pick some people to be saved but not others. That said, in order for God to be totally just God has to not be willing that any should perish. Likewise for God to be totally just, God in his wisdom picks those that he desires to be saved.
Looking back at the Old Testament we find where God has picked one person over another.Romans 9; 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. , only one example.
The point is do we trust God to do what is totally just no matter what it is he does or how he does it. And if we can not trust God in one point how are we able to trust God on anything regarding
his promises.

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
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Veritas41:
I believe Catholic teaching provides an answer where Calvinism doesn’t: God provides *sufficient *grace for all men to be saved, but His grace is *efficacious *for the elect.
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Joan, just a clarification are you saying this is Catholic teaching, or Calvinist teaching?
 
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allischalmers:
Hi again.
In answer to philthy’s post. First I am sorry that you get upset when some writes that God will pick some people to be saved but not others.
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Im not upset, Im confused by your logic - thats all. It doesn’t make sense.
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allischalmers:
That said, in order for God to be totally just God has to not be willing that any should perish.
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This is absolutely false. In fact God’s Justice DEMANDS that those who are unworthy of salvation not achieve it. Perhaps you are confusing Gods Mercy with his Justice?
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allischalmers:
Likewise for God to be totally just, God in his wisdom picks those that he desires to be saved.
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Where do you come up with this stuff? Please try and support this contention with Scripture. And please try and focus on the New Covenant - it is irrelevent to bring up Old Covenant stuff and try and apply it to New Covenant stuff.
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allischalmers:
Looking back at the Old Testament we find where God has picked one person over another.Romans 9; 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. , only one example.
The point is do we trust God to do what is totally just no matter what it is he does or how he does it.

Actually, the point was that in the New Covenant age, God wishes that none perish. I want to talk about now - not precrucifixion times.
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allischalmers:
And if we can not trust God in one point how are we able to trust God on anything regarding
his promises.

forever Baptist
allischalmers
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Well, we wouldn’t be able to - and certainly those who God “wills” to hell would be perfectly justified in not trusting Him either. That is another reason why I dont accept what you say. Im not mad though…
 
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sandusky:
Joan, just a clarification are you saying this is Catholic teaching, or Calvinist teaching?
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It is Catholic teaching. A level of ambiguity was introduced by the term “elect”, however. In non-Catholic theology, the “elect” generally refers to everyone who is eventually saved, and they are separate from the rest of humanity. These would be those who find Gods Grace “irresistable” in the TULIP acronym.
In Catholic theology - and there is room for both positions - there is a group of people referred to as the “elect” who are predestined to salvation (through the gift of final perseverence)**, **and another group of individuals who may - or may not - be saved, but whom ALL still have the possibility of salvation. I believe this is the position of the Molinists, but I will have to check…
Im pretty sure the only definitively condemned positions on predestination in Catholic theology is that of God predestining some to hell, and God usurping the free will of any man.

I know some will immediately ask, “Well how does the gift of final perseverence not usurp free will?” And the answer is that the gift doesn’t eliminate free will, it simply guarantees that the exercise of free will leads to salvation.
 
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Philthy:
It is Catholic teaching. A level of ambiguity was introduced by the term “elect”, however. In non-Catholic theology, the “elect” generally refers to everyone who is eventually saved, and they are separate from the rest of humanity.
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Yes, that’s a major difference I see between Calvinism and Catholicism – who are the elect? Calvinism teaches all those who are initially saved will automatically persevere (where OSAS comes in), whereas Catholicism teaches the elect are those who persevere until the end in grace.
 
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