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Vinny213
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I have a question regarding grace/inherent righteousness and sin. Can our inherent righteousness exist simultaneously with sin? Or in other words can sanctifying grace co-exist with sin with out being extinguished?
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Vinny213
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The following quotes from Gabriel Vasquez seems to say grace cannot co-exsist with sin.
And disp 207 cap 3 remains that grace and inherent habitual righteousness is of itself and without any previous disposition bestowed of such a nature and virtue that it is utterly inconsistent with the defilement of sin and cannot co exist with it even by the absolute power of God We CHAP XXVI J OR HABITUAL RIGHTEOUSNESS 219
1 2 disp 201 cap 4 If inherent righteousness could exist together with sin even by the absolute power of God it would follow that whatever of this kind inheres in us is not true righteousness nor does it deserve such a name
And disp 207 cap 3 remains that grace and inherent habitual righteousness is of itself and without any previous disposition bestowed of such a nature and virtue that it is utterly inconsistent with the defilement of sin and cannot co exist with it even by the absolute power of God We CHAP XXVI J OR HABITUAL RIGHTEOUSNESS 219
1 2 disp 201 cap 4 If inherent righteousness could exist together with sin even by the absolute power of God it would follow that whatever of this kind inheres in us is not true righteousness nor does it deserve such a name
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bzkoss236
Guest
I would say that it depends on the sin. Sanctifying grace cannot co-exist with mortal sin, because mortal sin causes spiritual death, and sanctifying grace brings life. You can’t be both spiritually dead and alive at the same time. Venial sins are sins that do not cause spiritual death, so I guess you could say that it can “co-exist” with sanctifying grace.
But don’t take my word on it. I’ll let someone more knowledgeable answer
But don’t take my word on it. I’ll let someone more knowledgeable answer
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DavidFilmer
Guest
No need - you nailed it. Well done.But don’t take my word on it. I’ll let someone more knowledgeable answer
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Vinny213
Guest
What type of sin is Vasquez referring too? Mortal or venial?
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Bookcat
Guest
Better to say: does Sanc. Grace remain after a sin?
After venial sin – yes.
When one commits a mortal sin --no.
(happying and thankfully it can return…)
After venial sin – yes.
When one commits a mortal sin --no.
(happying and thankfully it can return…)
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billcu1
Guest
WHat about the Graces promised by our Lady concerning the Rosary? If in mortal sin do you not receive them? Are they an actual grace? You can’t continue to sin and pray the Rosary.Better to say: does Sanc. Grace remain after a sin?
After venial sin – yes.
When one commits a mortal sin --no.
(happying and thankfully it can return…)
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Texas_Longhorns
Guest
Sanctifying grace is a supernatural quality of the soul. It is a created share of the Divine Nature that is infused into the human soul at baptism. If it is lost through sin, it is received either by an act of perfect contrition (which we can never be certain of), or by absolution.I have a question regarding grace/inherent righteousness and sin. Can our inherent righteousness exist simultaneously with sin? Or in other words can sanctifying grace co-exist with sin with out being extinguished?
Sin has a two-fold element: A turning away from God and turning toward creatures. If the turning away from God and toward a creature is serious (possessing the three necessary elements), the person will lose the state of grace. If the turning away is slight, the person will retain the state of grace.
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Vinny213
Guest
Is original righteousness restored to us at baptism? If so what do people make of the following quote:
11 iEgidius in Dionys Carthus in 2 sentent dist 32 quaest 1 says That Original Sin is the want of original righteousness with the obligation of having it. This Original Sin is put away in baptism not because original righteousness is restored to us but because the obligation of having it is remitted from us. Whereas in the state of corrupt nature we are bound to have it yet when we are made members of Christ by baptism we are absolved from the obligation of having that righteousness. For by baptism we are constituted in another state and order of nature so as not to be now called after the order of the earthly Adam but after the order of the heavenly that is of Christ our Saviour. Original Sin then is said to be taken away in the regenerate not because the thing itself is taken.
11 iEgidius in Dionys Carthus in 2 sentent dist 32 quaest 1 says That Original Sin is the want of original righteousness with the obligation of having it. This Original Sin is put away in baptism not because original righteousness is restored to us but because the obligation of having it is remitted from us. Whereas in the state of corrupt nature we are bound to have it yet when we are made members of Christ by baptism we are absolved from the obligation of having that righteousness. For by baptism we are constituted in another state and order of nature so as not to be now called after the order of the earthly Adam but after the order of the heavenly that is of Christ our Saviour. Original Sin then is said to be taken away in the regenerate not because the thing itself is taken.
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Texas_Longhorns
Guest
Keep in mind the two effects of original sin: 1) the loss of sanctifying grace and 2) the arrival of concupiscence. At Baptism, only sanctifying grace is restored; concupiscence remains.Is original righteousness restored to us at baptism? If so what do people make of the following quote:
Remember that sin has a two-fold element: 1) A turning away from God and 20 a turning toward creatures. In the state of original justice, we possessed, not only sanctifying grace, but also the gift of integrity.
Sanctifying grace brings with it supernatural charity (as a principle in an essence), which informs the human will and thereby turns man to God. By supernatural charity, man is turned toward God.
Integrity kept our lower nature perfectly subordinate to reason, and thereby prevented concupiscence. When man sinned - when man rose up against God - God removed the gift of integrity which caused man’s lower nature to rise up against his higher nature. We call this concupiscence, the effect of which is that man is turned toward creatures in a disordered way.
So, the loss of Sanctifying grace caused the turning away from God, while the loss of integtrity caused concupiscence, which is the turning toward creatures.
At baptism, sanctifying grace and charity are restored (which turns man to God), but not integrity. Therefore, concupiscence remains. The result is that man is turned toward God by charity, but still toward creatures by concupiscence.
Due to concupiscence, we will have to struggle in order to bring our lower nature in line with our reason.
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Vinny213
Guest
So a state of perfect sinless rightousness is not given to those who have been baptized? You have not interacted with the quote. It says that the original righteousness is not restored.
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Bookcat
Guest
Continue to pray the rosary if one falls into a mortal sin. But also seek to make an act of perfect contrition by the grace of God and get to confession.WHat about the Graces promised by our Lady concerning the Rosary? If in mortal sin do you not receive them? Are they an actual grace? You can’t continue to sin and pray the Rosary.
(I set aside here the question of any particular promise that has been asserted in terms of praying the rosary – in any case God gives graces…and Our Lady does intercede --and it is good for you --so keep praying-meditating on the Gospel scenes etc)
Yes actual graces -can help one even towards conversion etc. Even if one is not yet in a state of grace.
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Texas_Longhorns
Guest
The soul is cleansed perfectly at Baptism. That is why a person who dies immediately after baptism goes straight to heaven. But a perfectly cleansed soul is not the same as a soul that was created in Original Justice (or original righteousness), since Original Justice included preternatural gifts, which the soul cleansed in baptism does not possess.So a state of perfect sinless rightousness is not given to those who have been baptized? You have not interacted with the quote. It says that the original righteousness is not restored.
By using the term “state of perfect sinless righteousness”, it sounds like you are confusing the state of sinlessness, with the state of original justice (original righteousness). These are two different states.
The soul in the state of Original Justice was not only perfectly sinless; it also possessed gifts that kept it pure.
A soul created in original sin, which is later baptized, is also made perfectly pure; but since it does not possess the preternatural gifts (especially integrity), is has concupiscence which causes it to tends toward sin. As long as it resists this disorder it remains pure, but it a person gives in to a disordered desire resulting from concupiscence, it will fall into sin and no longer possess the purity it possessed received at baptism.
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Vinny213
Guest
How about my quote in question? What is that trying to say? I heard peligian attributed a state of perfect sinlessness to the regenerate.
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Vinny213
Guest
Is the innate rectitude restored after baptism?
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Vinny213
Guest
Is this quote consistent with catholic teachng:
That Original Sin is the want of original righteousness with the obligation of having it This Original Sin is put away in baptism not because original righteousness is restored to us but because the obligation of having it is remitted from us. Whereas in the state of corrupt nature we are bound to have it yet when we are made members of Christ by baptism we are absolved from the obligation of having that righteousness. For by baptism we are constituted in another state and order of nature so as not to be now called after the order of the earthly Adam but after the order of the heavenly that is of Christ our Saviour Original Sin then is said to be taken away.
That Original Sin is the want of original righteousness with the obligation of having it This Original Sin is put away in baptism not because original righteousness is restored to us but because the obligation of having it is remitted from us. Whereas in the state of corrupt nature we are bound to have it yet when we are made members of Christ by baptism we are absolved from the obligation of having that righteousness. For by baptism we are constituted in another state and order of nature so as not to be now called after the order of the earthly Adam but after the order of the heavenly that is of Christ our Saviour Original Sin then is said to be taken away.
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Texas_Longhorns
Guest
This does not strike me as traditional scholastic terminology. Where did the quote come from? Traditional scholastic terminology is very precise, with definite meanings for all the words and phrases.Is this quote consistent with catholic teachng:
That Original Sin is the want of original righteousness with the obligation of having it This Original Sin is put away in baptism not because original righteousness is restored to us but because the obligation of having it is remitted from us. Whereas in the state of corrupt nature we are bound to have it yet when we are made members of Christ by baptism we are absolved from the obligation of having that righteousness. For by baptism we are constituted in another state and order of nature so as not to be now called after the order of the earthly Adam but after the order of the heavenly that is of Christ our Saviour Original Sin then is said to be taken away.
Here’s a few questions and concerns that I have about the above quote.
- When he speaks of the obligation of having original righteousness (or original justice), it seems strange, since the gifts associated with the state of original justice were gratuitous. They were not part of man’s nature, but given to man freely by God. Man has not right to them, and therefore God was not unjust in removing them when man sinned. Therefore, it seems strange to speak of the obligation of having original justice.
- Then he speaks of the obligation of having original justice in the state of nature, but not required when we are members of Christ. This too seems strange. The language seems foreign.
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fhansen
Guest
No, just the opposite, in fact. Baptism restores original righteousness/justice/sanctifying grace; man becomes authentically righteous IOW, as he was always meant to be. From there we’ll continue to struggle with sin, with concupiscence, and our justice will be tested, and can be lost if we turn away from God again, or it can be refined and increased as we cooperate with His grace which seeks to lead us into ever deeper relationship with/love for Him. We’re always obligated to obey but, with the New Covenant, grace becomes available so that sin is not only forgiven, but we’re also helped to ‘go, and sin no more’. IOW, man is reconciled with God and obedience/righteousness now begins to come spontaneously, for the right reason, via grace, rather than solely via our own efforts at following the Law.Is this quote consistent with catholic teachng:
That Original Sin is the want of original righteousness with the obligation of having it This Original Sin is put away in baptism not because original righteousness is restored to us but because the obligation of having it is remitted from us. Whereas in the state of corrupt nature we are bound to have it yet when we are made members of Christ by baptism we are absolved from the obligation of having that righteousness. For by baptism we are constituted in another state and order of nature so as not to be now called after the order of the earthly Adam but after the order of the heavenly that is of Christ our Saviour Original Sin then is said to be taken away.
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Vinny213
Guest
What does Aquinas say happens at baptism, compared to what the quote I presented says? Also can concpisunce be called the root of sin?
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Vinny213
Guest
Is the root of sin considered to be plucked out at baptism? I heard Peligius affirmed that the regenerate are given perfect righteousness at baptism.
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