Sin Confusion

[HelenRose]

Then if that’s the case all sin is mortal.

Why is this important to you?

Are you pushing the envelope to see just how far we can go before crossing the line into mortal sin?

A person who has no qualm about small time petty cheating, small time petty thievery, small times petty gossip, small time petty snide comments, may not have a single serious “mortal” sin against their soul, but they slowly bit by erode their relationship with God until small time petty become real time wrong.

Another interesting teaching of Christ: Revelation 3:15-16
“I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,…”

If you read His teachings you will see that the pettiness of people was not highly regarded by Christ.

So, if you cheat on a test - big or small - confess. The priest will say, “Your sins are forgiven”.

 

[CatholicCraze]

Thank you all for your responses! It really helped me! I went to confession tonight and got it all squared away and forgiven. Thank you again!

 

[guanophore]

EVERYTHING IS A MORTAL SIN!!

Just kidding.

You have made the excellent point elsewhere that sin is “missing the mark”, so all sin is a failure to hit the center of God’s will, even though it is not all mortal.

It’s not so easy to commit a mortal sin. it means going to hell! It means total separation from God. Some people think everything is a mortal sin and most of us are going straight to hell.

Many scriptures come to mind, but today it’s 2 Peter 5:4-7

I know the next scripture talks about the devil lurking. But it’s not so easy to devour one who knows Christ.

And with that, I bid you all a good day.

Fran

I think that, for a very sanctified person, who lives in subjection to Christ and has conquered the “old man” a mortal sin would be difficult. Perhaps you are one of those? But for most people, mortal sin is not only easy, but a daily occurance. I am sorry to say this is even true of many Catholics in the pew on Sundays, since they think they have the right to determine which parts of the One Faith they can reject.

Of course, if one thinks that the "rules’ of the Church are simply man made insertions into the divine revelation, so that disobeying them is not a mortal sin, then that rules out quite a bit…

Such a liberty then allows one to decide for themselves which sins are “mortal” and thus justify setting aside what the Church may define as a mortal sin.

 

[frangiuliano115]

You have made the excellent point elsewhere that sin is “missing the mark”, so all sin is a failure to hit the center of God’s will, even though it is not all mortal.

I think that, for a very sanctified person, who lives in subjection to Christ and has conquered the “old man” a mortal sin would be difficult. Perhaps you are one of those? But for most people, mortal sin is not only easy, but a daily occurance. I am sorry to say this is even true of many Catholics in the pew on Sundays, since they think they have the right to determine which parts of the One Faith they can reject.

Of course, if one thinks that the "rules’ of the Church are simply man made insertions into the divine revelation, so that disobeying them is not a mortal sin, then that rules out quite a bit…

Such a liberty then allows one to decide for themselves which sins are “mortal” and thus justify setting aside what the Church may define as a mortal sin.

First of all, I wish you’d speak to a priest and ask HIM if it’s easy to commit a mortal sin. Too many on these threads are following the letter of the Law and afraid of committing a mortal sin at every turn. Takes away much of the joy Jesus said He came to bring us. “I have come that you may have life, and a life more abundant”. Difficult to have an abundant life when one is worried about sinning all the time.

Do this Guanaphore: Don’t think of a pink elephant.

I’ve made many good points and have many more to make. The problem is that you don’t agree on this legalism issue. You don’t seem to understand that it has nothing to do with following or not following rules. You can come to whatever conclusion you wish regarding whether or not I make up my own rules. This is something between me and God and not between me and you. I really do fail to understand why you’re so preoccupied with this.

You’re very judgemental. Remember that Jesus said that by the measure YOU judge, so shall YOU be judged. It’s not your concern if the people in the pews on Sundays are in right relationship with God. Your only concern should be whether or not YOU are in right relationship with God.

I’ve asked you a couple of times to read Pope Francis’ speeches. Try the one from this Wednesday, Nov 18 at the weekly audience down in Rome. Could you report back and tell me what you think the “door” is and what you think the “building” is. He plainly states what the door is, but not what the bldg is.

No really. You should do this.

Pope Francis also speaks of people who wish to reject a certain part of the faith, as you call it. I don’t call it rejecting the faith - that’s your term. Find out what he says about this. You’re computer literate - I know you can do this.

 

[Arizona_Fat_Gir]

Please allow me to clarify what I meant. I meant that a chance to glance over at another’s test is a very realistic possibility. In college, we had proctors watching the students, and there were two sections: one for the open-book tests, and one for exams where you could not bring any notes, etc.

I just meant that if you catch a glance at another’s paper, it seems to me that it may be a venial sin. If you were to do some cheating on a constant basis and on a more thought-out level, it’s more than likely mortal. Yes, it is a matter of degree…if one cheats once on something not very important, it could be a start in a lifelong habit. And, of course, Jesus hates all sin, no matter what it involves.

I was not pushing the envelope to see how far someone could go before committing serious sin. Sometimes that line between mortal and venial is not very clear and it could almost be said that most sins are mortal, if one wants to think of how it could escalate. Naturally that is not true. So, if I called someone a fathead in a fit of anger, I would think it venial. Someone else would say it’s mortal.

That’s all I meant.

 

[guanophore]

First of all, I wish you'd speak to a priest and ask HIM if it's easy to commit a mortal sin.

While I have known priests that live in mortal sin, the vast majority of priests I know are very holy people. No priests come to mind who would find it easy to commit a mortal sin. Walking in righteousness keeps one from falling into sin.

Too many on these threads are following the letter of the Law and afraid of committing a mortal sin at every turn.

Unfortunately I can’t argue with this.

Takes away much of the joy Jesus said He came to bring us. “I have come that you may have life, and a life more abundant”. Difficult to have an abundant life when one is worried about sinning all the time.

Impossible, I would say.

Do this Guanaphore: Don’t think of a pink elephant.

I agree with your apparent point that the focus should be on the Lord, not on sin, or preoccupation with avoiding sin.

 I've made many good points and have many more to make.  The problem is that you don't agree on this legalism issue.  You don't seem to understand that it has nothing to do with following or not following rules.

With all due respect, Fran, you have never gotten my point of view on your “legalism issue”, so it is impossible for you to know if I agree with you, or not. From the beginning, you have assigned me a position and have reacted to me based upon the position you assumed I held.

As far as following rules, I have only responded to the content of your posts. For the record, I agree that it has nothing to do with following rules.

You can come to whatever conclusion you wish regarding whether or not I make up my own rules. This is something between me and God and not between me and you. I really do fail to understand why you’re so preoccupied with this.

It is concerning to read posts from a catechist that seem to disparage the disciplines of the Church.

You’re very judgemental. Remember that Jesus said that by the measure YOU judge, so shall YOU be judged. It’s not your concern if the people in the pews on Sundays are in right relationship with God. Your only concern should be whether or not YOU are in right relationship with God.

The fact that I know these people, and their lifestyles, does not equate to being judgmental. You are right, the state of their souls is between them, and God. I attend Mass with them, and pray with them (as well as for them). I am not in a position to be able to pretend I do not know what I know.

I’ve asked you a couple of times to read Pope Francis’ speeches. Try the one from this Wednesday, Nov 18 at the weekly audience down in Rome.

Beyond asking, Fran, you have given me quite a few directives and assignments. Your tone has been rather bossy at times.

Could you report back and tell me what you think

Another in a long list of homework assignments.

No really. You should do this.

And on what grounds do you assert that you are in a position to tell me what I “should” do? Did you not just give me a scolding about being judgmental? Could it be that you might be seeing yourself in a mirror?

Pope Francis also speaks of people who wish to reject a certain part of the faith, as you call it. I don’t call it rejecting the faith - that’s your term.

The faith is One, Fran. It is a seamless garment. Beginning to tear threads results in unravelling the whole. Cafeteria Catholicism always results in a Protestant mindset.

 

[frangiuliano115]

While I have known priests that live in mortal sin, the vast majority of priests I know are very holy people. No priests come to mind who would find it easy to commit a mortal sin. Walking in righteousness keeps one from falling into sin.

Okay. Let’s talk for a minute.
I wasn’t speaking of priests. I said that any person who is worried about mortal sin should ask a priest if it’s easy to commit a mortal sin. I wasn’t saying priests go around committing mortal sins. You misunderstand much and I have little time for this CAF and cannot devote all of it to you which is why I don’t respond many times. Not because I think you’re correct in your assumptions.

I agree with your apparent point that the focus should be on the Lord, not on sin, or preoccupation with avoiding sin.

If you AGREE with my apparent point that the focus should be ON THE LORD and NOT on sin as many seem to be - then why are you confronting me all the time on THIS VERY SUBJECT???

With all due respect, Fran, you have never gotten my point of view on your “legalism issue”, so it is impossible for you to know if I agree with you, or not. From the beginning, you have assigned me a position and have reacted to me based upon the position you assumed I held.

Well, I’ve gotten your point of view that you disagree with me and think I’m some kind of heretic and then you say here that you DO agree with me. So which is it? What IS your point of view anyway??

As far as following rules, I have only responded to the content of your posts. For the record, I agree that it has nothing to do with following rules.

Since you agree with me, could we make some progress in discussions and speak about the ACTUAL CONTEXT of my replies and not focus on what a terrible catechist I must have been. That would be nice and it would also be nice if stopped assuming what kind of catechist I was.

It is concerning to read posts from a catechist that seem to disparage the disciplines of the Church.

First of all, I’m not here in the position of a catechist. I sometimes bring it up to make a point about children, how the church teaches, how it is LAX in teaching catechism to both children and adults (as proven by some threads).

I’m here as an adult person, speaking to other adult people. I was told when joining that this is a forum for EXCHANGE OF IDEAS. That’s what I’m doing guanophore. I’m exchanging ideas. I could only present MY ideas, not yours or anybody else’s. Do you grasp this concept??

Have you gone and checked out any of Pope Francis’ letters and/or replies to questions as I’ve begged you to do. Probably not or you’d have stopped by now. You should however. Seems to me like HE’S having some problems with church rules too. Maybe you have a problem distinguishing between DOGMA, DOCTRINE AND DISCIPLINES.
Did you know that disciplines could be and are changed? So if I don’t agree with a discipline that gives you the right to tell me I should change my religious designation? I mean, think of it.

I’ve told you before that there are people in our church that don’t agree with church DOGMA OR DOCTRINE. I’ve told you many times the church would be EMPTY if everyone had to fill out a questionnaire. I mean, do you deal with actual PEOPLE or do you just post here? I deal with real people and know what I’m talking about.

ONE

 

[frangiuliano115]

TWO

The fact that I know these people, and their lifestyles, does not equate to being judgmental. You are right, the state of their souls is between them, and God. I attend Mass with them, and pray with them (as well as for them). I am not in a position to be able to pretend I do not know what I know.

It would be interesting to know what you do know about them. Why do you care?
I have enough just worrying about my own soul and don’t need to be worried about anybody else.

Beyond asking, Fran, you have given me quite a few directives and assignments. Your tone has been rather bossy at times.

Well, aren’t you glad you’re not my husband? Which directives and assignments would those be? Like when I ask you to look on the net and find the Pope’s speeches? That’s not a directive. That would be proof for what I’m saying and since you’re so good with the net, it should be easy for you to do. If you consider that a directive, then this is WHY it’s impossible for you to have any kind of discourse with me and why you should maybe give it up??

Another in a long list of homework assignments.

Well. Did you do your “assignment?” You might have learned something interesting.
Guess you didn’t. You know I’m not very good with Professor Google and you know I don’t have a lot of time - I don’t understand why you cannot look into certain subjects yourself.

In fact, if somebody on these threads said something I didn’t agree with first and I didn’t have enough knowledge, I’d make SURE to know what they were talking about before continuing.

The only reason I SUGGEST the “assignments” is because you could ascertain the fact that I’m right in what I’m saying! You think I’d ask you to go look up something to prove that I’M wrong???

And on what grounds do you assert that you are in a position to tell me what I “should” do? Did you not just give me a scolding about being judgmental? Could it be that you might be seeing yourself in a mirror?

Wow. Psychology. I must be on the wrong forum.

The answer is “as above”.

The faith is One, Fran. It is a seamless garment. Beginning to tear threads results in unravelling the whole. Cafeteria Catholicism always results in a Protestant mindset.

Seems to me the threads are unraveling. But you don’t want to do your homework assignments so what can I say. Just keep keepin’ on I guess.

There you go again judging me. Cafeteria Catholic and protestant mindset.

And with this, no more time for any other thread…

I just wish it did some good - but…

 

[guanophore]

 Okay.  Let's talk for a minute.

How refreshing!

If you AGREE with my apparent point that the focus should be ON THE LORD and NOT on sin as many seem to be - then why are you confronting me all the time on THIS VERY SUBJECT???

I find the manner in which you express yourself alarming at times. I do not believe that either/or thinking is productive.

Well, I’ve gotten your point of view that you disagree with me and think I’m some kind of heretic and then you say here that you DO agree with me. So which is it?

My dear sister in Christ, I have no way of knowing whether you have espoused heretical views, since I can only go on what you POST. You have made several posts that indicate you reject the Teachings of the Church, but this in itself does not necessarily qualify you as a heretic. One must stubbornly and willfully reject the doctrine of the Church to qualify, but you seem to believe that what you have posted is consistent with what the Church believes.

All that being said, you are right, I do agree with most of what you post.

Since you agree with me, could we make some progress in discussions and speak about the ACTUAL CONTEXT of my replies and not focus on what a terrible catechist I must have been. That would be nice and it would also be nice if stopped assuming what kind of catechist I was.

I think your passion for Christ and your strong faith has made you a very effective catechist.

I can only respond to your POSTS, which sometimes come across as alarming.

First of all, I’m not here in the position of a catechist. I sometimes bring it up to make a point about children, how the church teaches, how it is LAX in teaching catechism to both children and adults (as proven by some threads).

I’m here as an adult person, speaking to other adult people. I was told when joining that this is a forum for EXCHANGE OF IDEAS. That’s what I’m doing guanophore. I’m exchanging ideas. I could only present MY ideas, not yours or anybody else’s. Do you grasp this concept??

Sure.

But you do have a pattern of assuming what the position of others is, then reacting to it.

Have you gone and checked out any of Pope Francis’ letters and/or replies to questions as I’ve begged you to do. Probably not or you’d have stopped by now.

You have made yet another inaccurate assumption about me. Perhaps I did not submit my “report” in a timely manner?

I am responding to your POSTS, something over which our blessed Holy Father has no control.

You should however. Seems to me like HE’S having some problems with church rules too. Maybe you have a problem distinguishing between DOGMA, DOCTRINE AND DISCIPLINES.

Again you are telling me what I “should” do. Perhaps I seem like some sort of non-compliant pre-adolescent?

I will confess that I have learned a great deal about teh diffeerences between dogma, doctrine, and disciplines since coming to CAF. I learn something new every day! I am not the one who characterized the Church disciplines as 'silly" and “crazy”. Nor am I the one that asserted that mankind has “inserted” human legalism into the Scriptures and the Church. :bigyikes:

Did you know that disciplines could be and are changed? So if I don’t agree with a discipline that gives you the right to tell me I should change my religious designation? I mean, think of it.

I did not tell you anything about changing your religious designation.

If you do not agree with the disciplines of the Church, it may be that you have already changed your religious designation without realizing it? That is between you and God.

If you assert on CAF that you are Catholic, and post anti-Catholic sentiments, you will probably hear about it.

 

[frangiuliano115]

How refreshing!

I find the manner in which you express yourself alarming at times. I do not believe that either/or thinking is productive.

My dear sister in Christ, I have no way of knowing whether you have espoused heretical views, since I can only go on what you POST. You have made several posts that indicate you reject the Teachings of the Church, but this in itself does not necessarily qualify you as a heretic. One must stubbornly and willfully reject the doctrine of the Church to qualify, but you seem to believe that what you have posted is consistent with what the Church believes.

All that being said, you are right, I do agree with most of what you post.

I think your passion for Christ and your strong faith has made you a very effective catechist.

I can only respond to your POSTS, which sometimes come across as alarming.

Sure.

But you do have a pattern of assuming what the position of others is, then reacting to it.

You have made yet another inaccurate assumption about me. Perhaps I did not submit my “report” in a timely manner?

I am responding to your POSTS, something over which our blessed Holy Father has no control.

Again you are telling me what I “should” do. Perhaps I seem like some sort of non-compliant pre-adolescent?

I will confess that I have learned a great deal about teh diffeerences between dogma, doctrine, and disciplines since coming to CAF. I learn something new every day! I am not the one who characterized the Church disciplines as 'silly" and “crazy”. Nor am I the one that asserted that mankind has “inserted” human legalism into the Scriptures and the Church. :bigyikes:

I did not tell you anything about changing your religious designation.

If you do not agree with the disciplines of the Church, it may be that you have already changed your religious designation without realizing it? That is between you and God.

If you assert on CAF that you are Catholic, and post anti-Catholic sentiments, you will probably hear about it.

Leaving right after this.

Please tell me which anti-catholic sentiments I’ve expressed.
And which disciplines of the church I do not agree with.

Really, I wouldn’t care to ask you the above two questions, but, as I’ve stated in the past, you do make remarks about me that must leave posters wondering about me.

So, yes, please answer my two questions.

I’m sure everyone is waiting with baited breath for the answers.

Thanks.

 

[PRmerger]

You’re very judgemental.

Oh, the irony!

For in this short sentence you have demonstrated a very…er,…judgmental spirit.

Of course, as a good Bible Christian I know that the Bible commands us to be judgmental (although to judge using good discernment) (see John 7:24), so I don’t see a problem with being judgmental.

But I suspect that you think it’s a bad thing to be judgmental?

 

[Brendan_64]

It’s not so easy to commit a mortal sin. it means going to hell! It means total separation from God. Some people think everything is a mortal sin and most of us are going straight to hell.

It is not that difficult to commit a mortal sin.
Check your Catechism. If the sin is grave matter and committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent, then it is a mortal sin. Grave matter includes the contents of the Ten Commandments, and they are not all that difficult to breach.

The problem is (in my opinion) that sin is being downplayed, and that Hell is being portrayed as somewhere where only murderers, rapists and the like go to (so therefore mortal sins must be only those sorts of things). That would be nice, but it is not what our Church teaches.

Telling someone that it is not easy to commit a mortal sin, and therefore that it is not easy to end up in Hell, may seem comforting, but it can lead people into a false sense of security which could come very badly un-stuck in the next life.

If you are in any doubt that a sin may be mortal then treat it as if it was a mortal sin and go to Confession.

 

[frangiuliano115]

It is not that difficult to commit a mortal sin.
Check your Catechism. If the sin is grave matter and committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent, then it is a mortal sin. Grave matter includes the contents of the Ten Commandments, and they are not all that difficult to breach.

The problem is (in my opinion) that sin is being downplayed, and that Hell is being portrayed as somewhere where only murderers, rapists and the like go to (so therefore mortal sins must be only those sorts of things). That would be nice, but it is not what our Church teaches.

Telling someone that it is not easy to commit a mortal sin, and therefore that it is not easy to end up in Hell, may seem comforting, but it can lead people into a false sense of security which could come very badly un-stuck in the next life.

If you are in any doubt that a sin may be mortal then treat it as if it was a mortal sin and go to Confession.

I agree with your last sentence.

A false sense of security.
What is that sense of security?
It has to be Jesus.
How could I have a false sense of security if I’m counting on Him?

The Israelites promised God they would keep the Law, but they couldn’t.
.
I like the New and Everlasting Covenant myself. I like Jeremiah 31:31-34.

I like to concentrate on the grace of God. It helps me to understand the two greatest commandments Jesus left us with.

Love God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind
And love your neighbor as yourself.

So. If I love God, and my neighbor and myself - that knocks out a lot of sins. Would you agree? You really don’t need any others. And Jesus came to take care of sin. We are no longer under the dominion of sin.

Jesus took care of sin and sins. People who worry about mortal sin all day are woefully lacking in the understanding of the grace of God.

Try evangelizing using the tactic of hell. See how far that gets you. Grace works every time because God is Love and God’s grace is sufficient.

You’re afraid of hell being downplayed Brendan64. I understand you. But the fear of hell will not keep one from sinning - the grace of God will. Do you follow a mean and hard taskmaster better or a loving one for whom you want to work and work well?

It’s kind of the same thing. I like CCC no. 1848, 1849, 1850 and 1851.

I feel like we have to decide if God is that hard taskmaster, just waiting for us to sin and punish us, or if He loves us and protects us when we fail and pours His grace on us.

I don’t think He could be both.

 

[Brendan_64]

You’re afraid of hell being downplayed Brendan64. I understand you. But the fear of hell will not keep one from sinning - the grace of God will. Do you follow a mean and hard taskmaster better or a loving one for whom you want to work and work well?

It is not about God being a “mean and hard taskmaster” it is about keeping His Commandments. Christ said to us, “If you Love me, keep my Commandments”. God’s Commandments are not rules made by a hard taskmaster, they represent a road-map to enable us to reach salvation. We need to follow the road map, even when the road seems tough. People do not end up in Hell because God is not loving, they end up there because of their own choices.

And yes, you are correct to an extent, fear of Hell alone will not keep us from sinning, but downplaying sin in a ‘don’t worry about it God loves you’ attitude leads people to not actually view sinful behaviour as being sinful, and leads people to view serious sins as not being that serious. Pretending Hell doesn’t exist won’t make it go away.

And as for evangelising, I agree, standing around shouting about hellfire and damnation is not likely to gain converts, but on the other hand we must be truthful about the nature of sin and of Hell, otherwise we are selling people a lie. We need to be truthful to people and not just tell them what they want to hear. Sin exists, Hell exists, and God’s Commandments are a road-map to lead to Heaven. God loves us and if we love Him we will keep His Commandments.

 

[frangiuliano115]

It is not about God being a “mean and hard taskmaster” it is about keeping His Commandments. Christ said to us, “If you Love me, keep my Commandments”. God’s Commandments are not rules made by a hard taskmaster, they represent a road-map to enable us to reach salvation. We need to follow the road map, even when the road seems tough. People do not end up in Hell because God is not loving, they end up there because of their own choices.

And yes, you are correct to an extent, fear of Hell alone will not keep us from sinning, but downplaying sin in a ‘don’t worry about it God loves you’ attitude leads people to not actually view sinful behaviour as being sinful, and leads people to view serious sins as not being that serious. Pretending Hell doesn’t exist won’t make it go away.

And as for evangelising, I agree, standing around shouting about hellfire and damnation is not likely to gain converts, but on the other hand we must be truthful about the nature of sin and of Hell, otherwise we are selling people a lie. We need to be truthful to people and not just tell them what they want to hear. Sin exists, Hell exists, and God’s Commandments are a road-map to lead to Heaven. God loves us and if we love Him we will keep His Commandments.

You know Brendan, it’s all words. I mean, you’re talking to someone who had to teach kids about hell. If you teach someone to drive, you do have to tell them about those red traffic lights or they’ll die in an accident.

I tried more to concentrate on letting them know Jesus and what He did for them. On letting them understand the He opened up the gates of heaven so they could go there if they choose to follow Him.

There’s one sentence up there I don’t agree with. You say:

God’s Commandments are not rules made by a hard taskmaster, they represent a road-map to enable us to reach salvation. We need to follow the road map,

See this is what I mean. We’ve been on threads before and there’s such a fundamental misunderstanding. or maybe we just see christianity from a different light or side. Which is okay. I don’t like to argue with people. Just to explain myself:

What you say there is that you’re going to get to heaven on your own works. Not by having faith in the finished work of Jesus. It’s a big difference. This DOES NOT mean that we should not follow the commandments or go around sinning and not worrying about it.

The commandments were not given only as a road map. They were given to let man know about sin and the he is a sinner. The Israelites had been enslaved in Egypt for about 400 years (not the whole time). When they came out they didn’t know what sin was anymore because the had been so oppressed. So Moses went up Mt. Sinai and came down with the commandments written in stone so that they could know what they were doing wrong. Also, to use as a means of having a better society and an easier life together and all that. They had promised to follow the Law, but they could not - there was no power to.

Jesus said, When I am raised up, I will draw all men to me. Now we have the commandments written on our hearts. JESUS is the Road Map! By dying for us He has given us the love necessary for us to actually be able to follow those rules. He sent the Holy Spirit to abide in us and to be our helper.

So we don’t reach salvation by following the map, Jesus IS our map! Ephesians 2:8:
“For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, lest no man should boast”.

So it’s this grace of God that let’s us be able to follow the commandments. I used to tell the kids, and this is a christian concept, first you come to God, then you become holy.
(beng set apart for service to God.) Many thought you had to be holy first and THEN come to God.

So much typing, so many words. You know, it really doesn’t matter. We both are following within our own understanding and are brothers in Christ.

Fran

 

[johnnyc176]

I agree with your apparent point that the focus should be on the Lord, not on sin, or preoccupation with avoiding sin.

But the closer we get to Jesus the more we realize our sinfulness. As Peter said when Jesus got in his boat…‘depart from me for I am a sinful man’.

 

[Brendan_64]

You know Brendan, it’s all words. I mean, you’re talking to someone who had to teach kids about hell.

And so have I. I’m a teacher, I have been a catechist and I am involved in street evangelisation.

Children have no issue accepting that Hell exists, or that Purgatory exits, or that people don’t automatically go to Heaven when they die. It’s the adults who teach them that tend to have the problems with these things.

I tried more to concentrate on letting them know Jesus and what He did for them. On letting them understand the He opened up the gates of heaven so they could go there if they choose to follow Him.

Of course. But it’s not an ‘either-or’ situation, teaching about one doesn’t preclude teaching about the other.

There’s one sentence up there I don’t agree with. You say:

God’s Commandments are not rules made by a hard taskmaster, they represent a road-map to enable us to reach salvation. We need to follow the road map,

See this is what I mean. We’ve been on threads before and there’s such a fundamental misunderstanding. or maybe we just see christianity from a different light or side. Which is okay. I don’t like to argue with people. Just to explain myself:

But what are God’s Commandments if not a road-map to guide us? Why did He give us Commandments if not as a means to guide us to Heaven?

What you say there is that you’re going to get to heaven on your own works. Not by having faith in the finished work of Jesus. It’s a big difference.

No it does not mean that. However the Catholic Church does not hold the “Once saved always saved” view of some Protestant groups. As Catholics we cooperate with God’s grace, and we do this through our behaviour here on Earth, which includes following God’s Commandments. Our place in paradise is not secured simply by being Christians.

So we don’t reach salvation by following the map, Jesus IS our map! Ephesians 2:8:
“For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, lest no man should boast”.

We do not get to paradise simply by believing in Jesus, yes we are saved by God’s grace, but we have to cooperate through following God’s Commandments, that is what our Church teaches. The Commandments are a blueprint, a roadmap in order to achieve salvation.

 

[frangiuliano115]

And so have I. I’m a teacher, I have been a catechist and I am involved in street evangelisation.

Have never done street evagelisaton - only privately with friends, etc.

Children have no issue accepting that Hell exists, or that Purgatory exits, or that people don’t automatically go to Heaven when they die. It’s the adults who teach them that tend to have the problems with these things.

I’ve found recently that kids do question everything more. Had a couple of little atheists my last year. I had to stop last year and really miss transmitting my faith to the little ones. They wanted to know who created God. I wanted to know Who made the entire universe!

Of course. But it’s not an ‘either-or’ situation, teaching about one doesn’t preclude teaching about the other.

Okay. I just like depending on the Christ.

But what are God’s Commandments if not a road-map to guide us? Why did He give us Commandments if not as a means to guide us to Heaven?

Did the Israelites and Moses go to heaven??

No it does not mean that. However the Catholic Church does not hold the “Once saved always saved” view of some Protestant groups. As Catholics we cooperate with God’s grace, and we do this through our behaviour here on Earth, which includes following God’s Commandments. Our place in paradise is not secured simply by being Christians.

I said I don’t believe in OSAS either. Let’s forget about that. Your last sentence is a whole other thread but not tonight!

We do not get to paradise simply by believing in Jesus, yes we are saved by God’s grace, but we have to cooperate through following God’s Commandments, that is what our Church teaches. The Commandments are a blueprint, a roadmap in order to achieve salvation.

Terminology again. We should make a dictionary. I think we DO get to heaven by believing in Jesus. But the GREEK believing. Jesus did say that many would come crying Lord Lord we healed in your name, etc. and He’ll reply - I know you not. So it’s not something we could get into here. I do think that salvation is achieved through this belief.

You know the bible and CCC as well as I do. No use quoting verses back and forth. As long as we’re on the right road we could disagree on some nuances. Some are alarmed because they think I’m saying that the commandments are not important. I’ll have to live with not being understood well!

Have enjoyed our discussion!

Fran

 

[Brendan_64]

Terminology again. We should make a dictionary. I think we DO get to heaven by believing in Jesus. But the GREEK believing. Jesus did say that many would come crying Lord Lord we healed in your name, etc. and He’ll reply - I know you not. So it’s not something we could get into here. I do think that salvation is achieved through this belief.

You know the bible and CCC as well as I do. No use quoting verses back and forth. As long as we’re on the right road we could disagree on some nuances. Some are alarmed because they think I’m saying that the commandments are not important. I’ll have to live with not being understood well!

Have enjoyed our discussion!

Fran

This is not about ‘terminology’ this is about fundamental teachings. Our Church does not teach that you get to Heaven simply by believing in Jesus. It is not a case of just believing in Jesus and that’s it, you have a pass to paradise. That is what some Protestant groups teach. In order to get to Heaven we have to cooperate with God’s grace through how we live our lives on this Earth. These are not ‘nuances’ these are fundamental matters of doctrine (these are issues upon which Martin Luther spilt from the Church over).

Mortal sin exists, Hell exists, Purgatory exists, and being baptised and believing in Jesus does not guarantee a place in paradise. Pretending such things don’t exist will not make them go away, and teaching people that they don’t exist and that all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they will get to Heaven is not teaching them what our Church teaches, and that is a very dangerous game to play. Ultimately it is not about what we, as individuals believe, it is about what our Church teaches. If our Church teaches it then it is Truth, regardless of whether we agree with it or not.

 

[frangiuliano115]

This is not about ‘terminology’ this is about fundamental teachings. Our Church does not teach that you get to Heaven simply by believing in Jesus. It is not a case of just believing in Jesus and that’s it, you have a pass to paradise. That is what some Protestant groups teach. In order to get to Heaven we have to cooperate with God’s grace through how we live our lives on this Earth. These are not ‘nuances’ these are fundamental matters of doctrine (these are issues upon which Martin Luther spilt from the Church over).

Mortal sin exists, Hell exists, Purgatory exists, and being baptised and believing in Jesus does not guarantee a place in paradise. Pretending such things don’t exist will not make them go away, and teaching people that they don’t exist and that all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they will get to Heaven is not teaching them what our Church teaches, and that is a very dangerous game to play. Ultimately it is not about what we, as individuals believe, it is about what our Church teaches. If our Church teaches it then it is Truth, regardless of whether we agree with it or not.

Must go after this, but:

What does believe mean in the original Greek?
What does our church teach - that we are saved by faith or by works?

Tomorrow