Sin Confusion

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frangiuliano115 said:
What does our church teach - that we are saved by faith or by works?
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Here’s how Catholics profess we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (Matt: 25:42)
 
PRmerger said:
Here’s how Catholics profess we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (Matt: 25:42)
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11 by faith
3 by works

But which comes first anyway??
 
BRENDAN 64

i think the following will better explain my position.

From 1997 revison of the original 1971 General Directory for Catechesis (CONGREGATION FOR THE CLERGY):

The work of revising the General Catechetical Directory undertaken by the Congregation for the Clergy, was conducted by a group of Bishops and experts in theology and catechesis. In the revision of the General Directory, its original inspiration and content were respected. Episcopal Conferences and several experts were consulted as were the principal catechetical institutes and centres.
  1. Faith involves a change of life, a “metanoia”, (148) that is a profound transformation of mind and heart; it causes the believer to live that conversion. (149) This transformation of life manifests itself at all levels of the Christian’s existence: in his interior life of adoration and acceptance of the divine will, in his action, participation in the mission of the Church, in his married and family life; in his professional life; in fulfilling economic and social responsibilities.
Faith and conversion arise from the “heart”, that is, they arise from the depth of the human person and they involve all that he is. By meeting Jesus Christ and by adhering to him the human being sees all of his deepest aspirations completely fulfilled. He finds what he had always been seeking and he finds it superabundantly. (150) Faith responds to that “waiting”, (151) often unconscious and always limited in its knowledge of the truth about God, about man himself and about the destiny that awaits him. It is like pure water (152) which refreshes the journey of man, wandering in search of his home. Faith is a gift from God. It can only be born in the intimacy of Man’s heart as a fruit of that “grace [which] moves and assists him”, (153) and as a completely freeresponse to the promptings of the Holy Spirit who moves the heart and turns it toward God, and who “makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth”. (154) The Blessed Virgin Mary lived these dimensions of faith in the most perfect way. The Church “venerates in Mary the purest realization of faith”. (155)

vatican.va/roman_curia/co…chesis_en.html

I don’t think Jesus did all He did to show us how to follow rules. I think He wants a total transformation of man, so that rules will not be necessary.

“By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you love one another.”

What more could be said?
 
PRmerger said:
What? 11 faith? 3 works? What do the numbers 11 and 3 mean? **

You’re going to have to figure that out on your own. That’s what all my posts have been about.

It depends…some people have faith which causes them to do good works. Some people do good works, and that brings them to faith.

Sometimes for both scenarios. Not always for both scenarios.

Both/And.
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It can’t be both PRmerger. It’s one or the other.
“If you live under the Law
You will be judged by the Law”

Read Galatians 4:21 to chapter 5:6

The difference between the Law and Grace.

Good Night.

** Your list totals 14
 
frangiuliano115 said:
It can’t be both PRmerger. It’s one or the other.
“If you live under the Law
You will be judged by the Law”

Read Galatians 4:21 to chapter 5:6

The difference between the Law and Grace.

Good Night.
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Not sure how that contradicts what I was saying.

Catholics profess that we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (Matt: 25:42)
 
PRmerger said:
Not sure how that contradicts what I was saying.

Catholics profess that we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (Matt: 25:42)
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It’s really late here - can’t seem to get away!

You didn’t answer my question, really.

Is it faith that saves your soul, or is it your own good works?

In your list you have 11 that save by faith and only 3 state works.

Did you read those passages? I posted it because it explains it better than I ever could.

Tomorrow, if you wish to continue…
 
frangiuliano115 said:
It’s really late here - can’t seem to get away!

You didn’t answer my question, really.

Is it faith that saves your soul, or is it your own good works?

Did you read those passages? I posted it because it explains it better than I ever could.

Tomorrow, if you wish to continue…
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Our own good works alone can never save us.

This is what saves us:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (Matt: 25:42)
 
johnnyc176 said:
But the closer we get to Jesus the more we realize our sinfulness. As Peter said when Jesus got in his boat…‘depart from me for I am a sinful man’.
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Yes, and our response should be the same as Peter, to fall to our knees and seek His mercy.

We are brought thereby in grace into more grace, that will enable us to stand in His presence.

I think the point that Fran is trying to make is that it is this closeness with Jesus that brings us into the grace that enables us to conquer sin.
 
frangiuliano115 said:
Terminology again. We should make a dictionary. I think we DO get to heaven by believing in Jesus. But the GREEK believing. Jesus did say that many would come crying Lord Lord we healed in your name, etc. and He’ll reply - I know you not. So it’s not something we could get into here. I do think that salvation is achieved through this belief.
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I think that we are all in agreement on this point, Fran. It is frustrating when you seem to create false dichotomies, suggesting that one cannot walk in grace and still be obedient to the commandments. I did not see anything that suggested anyone here is claiming they can work their way to heaven under their own power.

I think we all agree that the faith that saves us is a faith that works, a faith that obeys.
frangiuliano115 said:
]You know the bible and CCC as well as I do. No use quoting verses back and forth. As long as we’re on the right road we could disagree on some nuances. Some are alarmed because they think I’m saying that the commandments are not important. I’ll have to live with not being understood.
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I think you do lose people when you set up such false dichotomies. The commandments are given to us to protect us, because God loves us, and wants what is best for us.
 
frangiuliano115 said:
I don’t think Jesus did all He did to show us how to follow rules. I think He wants a total transformation of man, so that rules will not be necessary.
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But a total transformation isn’t something that is achieved overnight, we have to work at it, it doesn’t simply happen. That is why we have the Commandments and ‘rules’, to guide us on the right path towards total transformation. Christ said that if we loved Him we should follow His commandments.

It is not simply a case of thinking, “I believe in Jesus, therefore I am automatically going to Heaven”, that is not what our Church teaches. Hell, exists, sin exists and the wages of sin is death. Yes we are saved by the grace of God, but we need to work to cooperate with that grace through how we live our lives, including following His commandments. The ‘rules’ and commandments given to us by God are not harsh, punitive measures, they are a gift to us, a blueprint to show us how to live, how to cooperate with the grace of God in order to reach Heaven.
 
Brendan_64 said:
But a total transformation isn’t something that is achieved overnight, we have to work at it, it doesn’t simply happen. That is why we have the Commandments and ‘rules’, to guide us on the right path towards total transformation. Christ said that if we loved Him we should follow His commandments.

It is not simply a case of thinking, “I believe in Jesus, therefore I am automatically going to Heaven”, that is not what our Church teaches. Hell, exists, sin exists and the wages of sin is death. Yes we are saved by the grace of God, but we need to work to cooperate with that grace through how we live our lives, including following His commandments. The ‘rules’ and commandments given to us by God are not harsh, punitive measures, they are a gift to us, a blueprint to show us how to live, how to cooperate with the grace of God in order to reach Heaven.
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I think guanophore is right and I think we should end this, as I’ve said two times prior to this.

PRMerget has posted a list already 3 times with 14 items on it. 11 are referring to grace and 3 are referring to works.

You DO need both - I never said that we shouldn’t follow the commandments. I said that GRACE allows us to follow the commandments. This seems easy to me. You either understand it or you don’t. However you understand it is fine - I’m not the Pope!

All I’m saying is that grace and faith save us - from which works flow.
Our works cannot save us.

Why is this so intimidating that we have to argue about it??

Time to stop.

Fran
 
guanophore said:
Yes, and our response should be the same as Peter, to fall to our knees and seek His mercy.

We are brought thereby in grace into more grace, that will enable us to stand in His presence.

I think the point that Fran is trying to make is that it is this closeness with Jesus that brings us into the grace that enables us to conquer sin.
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AMEN to sentence no. 3!
 
frangiuliano115 said:
I think guanophore is right and I think we should end this, as I’ve said two times prior to this.

PRMerget has posted a list already 3 times with 14 items on it. 11 are referring to grace and 3 are referring to works.

You DO need both - I never said that we shouldn’t follow the commandments. I said that GRACE allows us to follow the commandments. This seems easy to me. You either understand it or you don’t. However you understand it is fine - I’m not the Pope!

All I’m saying is that grace and faith save us - from which works flow.
Our works cannot save us.

Why is this so intimidating that we have to argue about it??

Time to stop.

Fran
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As long as you acknowledge the Catholic point of view we can stop. 🙂

Initially you were creating false dichotomies.
 
PRmerger said:
As long as you acknowledge the Catholic point of view we can stop. 🙂

Initially you were creating false dichotomies.
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I acknowledge nothing that isn’t true,

You’ll have to list the false dichotomies.

You’ll have to explain the Catholic point of view - just in case I’m too dense to understand it.
 
Fran, there is nothing intimidating about this. The reason for my argument is that you seem to be implying that because we are saved by God’s grace we need not worry about sin, Hell, etc. because we are saved. This sounds very like the Protestant notion of ‘once saved always saved’.

The Church teaches that although we are saved by God’s grace, we need to cooperate with God’s grace through our own actions, using God’s gift of free will, to reach Heaven. That does include obediently following His commandments to us. Failure to do so is to sin and sin has consequences, which could be grave and eternal. So, yes, we should obey God’ commandments, and yes, we should be concerned about the prospect of eternal damnation.
 
Brendan_64 said:
Fran, there is nothing intimidating about this. The reason for my argument is that you seem to be implying that because we are saved by God’s grace we need not worry about sin, Hell, etc. because we are saved. This sounds very like the Protestant notion of ‘once saved always saved’.

The Church teaches that although we are saved by God’s grace, we need to cooperate with God’s grace through our own actions, using God’s gift of free will, to reach Heaven. That does include obediently following His commandments to us. Failure to do so is to sin and sin has consequences, which could be grave and eternal. So, yes, we should obey God’ commandments, and yes, we should be concerned about the prospect of eternal damnation.
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Uffa Brendan 64. WHERE did I imply that we shouldn’t worry about sin. I make an effort to include that I do NOT mean to imply that the commandments should not be kept. You don’t have to go by what I imply. I think I’m pretty good at stating exactly what I believe - but, I’m starting to doubt this ability!

Also, I don’t know if this is the thread, maybe not, but I did give a detailed explanation of OSAS. It’s not correct to refer this notion of OSAS to protestantism since most of them don’t believe in it. And, of course, neither do I since it’s not biblical.

Can we agree on this:

We are saved by faith, by the grace of God
It is necessary for us to cooperate in this redeeming grace by accepting Jesus and His teachings - which include the commandments AND MORE.
After salvation and belief in God, good works will follow. You will know a tree by its fruit.

(atheists out there need not write in - they could do good works too).

Okay?

Fran
 
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