Sin Doesn't Exist

[jasphair]

Wrong. Hell exists in every context, even in one where you don’t believe it.

It is not equally valid. Jesus taught the contrary. He taught that in the end there will be two places for those who have lived. Heaven or Hell.

You won’t find Him by denying there is sin

You have demonstrated that whatever evidence is provided will be rejected. So, there will be no proof for you.

Well then, to hell with me then! God damn me for thinking so much! God damn me for speculating. God damn me for trying to find Him, and then feeling a sense of complete hopelessness, and giving up, choosing a more “neutral” stance of “I don’t really know who god is, and I’m not sure anyone else does either…”

I deserve eternal pain and suffering. I’m an abomination among God’s creatures.

Thank you, Lord, for making me such a deep thinker. Thank you, Lord, for placing me in a world engulfed in turmoil. Thank you, Lord, for giving me little to have hope in, other than what you supposedly said thousands of years ago.

It is only just, then, that the fires of hell burn me forever.

 

[jasphair]

But why believe in the “power of love”? How many evils have been committed “in the name of love”?

I’m not entirely sure, however, I’m sure more crimes and evils have been committed as a result of a LACK of love!

We humans require love to live, just as we require oxygen. If you strip a person of love, they become a terrible, miserable creature capable of anything great and horrific. If you strip a person of oxygen, they die.

Love is one of humanities basic needs, along with food, water, shelter, etc.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Okay… but Hell… out of the Christian context… doesn’t exist, right? So… really, your argument is not factual, is not truth, etc, due to Hell being unable to be proven, outside of so called “sacred scriptures”.

My belief that everyone goes to Heaven, is just as valid as your idea of Hell. You have some writings in an old book. I have plenty who agree with me. What about those who believe we just disappear? What about those who don’t believe in souls?

If you cannot prove it, then don’t declare it the truth, LET ALONE “the one and only way”, or “the way the truth and the life”. That just upsets people who really ARE seeking the truth.

I’m not here to deny anyone. I’m here to find God!

People get angry, saying “Do you expect God to prove himself to you?” Of course I do! If my options are death or life, I need a little more to go on OTHER THAN old writings, and the fact that people have possibly been gullible to believe them.

Oh, and personal testimony = not proof either.

DavidV pretty much said what I was going to say. We don’t want you to go to Hell. You have now been apprised of its existence, and I’m certain that people are now praying for your heart to open.

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m not entirely sure, however, I’m sure more crimes and evils have been committed as a result of a LACK of love!

We humans require love to live, just as we require oxygen. If you strip a person of love, they become a terrible, miserable creature capable of anything great and horrific. If you strip a person of oxygen, they die.

Love is one of humanities basic needs, along with food, water, shelter, etc.

Indeed! Recall that Scripture says that God is love. Anything in your search that you find to be true of love is really true of God as well. So God probably hasn’t written you off just yet.

 

[steve_b]

Greetings,

I don’t believe sin exists. Of course, many would say I’m a sinner in denial, or that satan is tricking me into feeling more comfortable with my sins. I disagree.

I’ve been told that sin, by definition, is a act performed against the known will of God. It is a clear decision to disobey.

If, for example, someone kills someone. The Church would say, “that person committed a sin, they chose to disobey against the known will of God”. Do sane people kill people, however? I’m not talking about military troops or anything like that, but when the average person kills someone, are they choosing to do so? Are they sinning? I would side more with the idea that they likely have some sort of psychological issue. If this is the case, they did not knowingly choose to sin, but rather, their issue caused them to sin. It’s not as if some fallen angel whispered into their ear, and said “ssssssinnner, kill himmmmmmm”. That’s cute, but unrealistic.

Follow the progression

Rm 4:15
law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Rm 5:13
before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Rm 5:20
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
j:

If, for example, I fornicate with someone, it’s probably out of love for them that I do so.

Your problem is, God is getting in your way of doing what you want to do. He’s inconvenient for your life. He put a law in place against what you’re doing. Doing it only increases your trespass. Trying to ignore the law won’t make your trespass go away. It only increases it.
j:

It’s not a decision of disobeying, it’s acting on feelings, emotion, and human nature.

Who are you kidding?

Gee officer, I felt it was safe to go 120 miles an hour. I know the speed limit is 65 mph but I think that’s totally unfair and unatural. My car needs to go 120 mph becauese it’s a high performance vehicle. It NEEDS to go fast and so do I. How far do you think you’ll get with THAT defense?
j:

We are sexual creatures by design, much like every other mammal on the planet. When we act on our sexual instincts, we’re acting like animals - which we are, albeit a bit higher up the chain.

God didn’t die for animals. He didn’t come to redeem animals. Animals aren’t made to the image and likeness of God. sheesh!!!
j:

When I engage in this activity, I’m not saying “well God thinks this, and I don’t care, I do what I want!”, it’s more of “I care for this person, and I want to share myself with them.” Unfortunately, the Church makes me feel like a real Hitler for doing so, but given that the church pre-dates the Scarlet Letter and times when fornicators were killed, cast out, etc, I’m not surprised. In time, the old world will die off, and the new will take over.

You really buy this?
j:

It would seem as though “sins” have been more or less things looked down upon by the societies of old. If you do , you are a bad person, and need redemption! Shame on you!

Oh, and even if sin does exist, whose fault is it? Surely it is not Adam and Eve’s fault. It’s God’s fault for letting the ssssssnake down here! So you mean to tell me, God’s going to punish sinners, whom He indirectly caused to fall into sin?

I don’t know about all this.

Eve blamed the snake.

And Your argument above merely voices what Adam voiced.

It was the woman YOU gave me who made me do it!!! :doh2: IOW Adam blamed Eve but most of all he blamed God.

They ALL, Adam, EVE, Satan disobeyed God. They knew it. And they knew the consequences. God tested them and they failed. God threw Satan out of heaven, God threw Adam and Eve out of the Garden, and you blame God?

He’s giving you a test NOW. And you’re blaming everyone and everything but yourself for your disobedience, just like Satan. and Adam and Eve did etc etc etc. Einstein said the measure of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

[Lizziebel]

I’m not entirely sure, however, I’m sure more crimes and evils have been committed as a result of a LACK of love!

We humans require love to live, just as we require oxygen. If you strip a person of love, they become a terrible, miserable creature capable of anything great and horrific. If you strip a person of oxygen, they die.

Love is one of humanities basic needs, along with food, water, shelter, etc.

In your first sentence there, you basically gave a good summary of what sin is. It is committing a crime/evil against someone out of a lack of love. It is making a deliberate choice to do this to someone. Choosing to live this way is one way a person can be stripped (or, rather, strip themselves) of love…and you’ve described very well the consequences of that (being unhappy/miserable to the severe extreme of being a terrible person capable of doing horrific things). If this is what a person chooses for themselves in life, and they don’t fix it, would not those effects remain with them in death?

God is love, and He made us for love. So, just as you said, we need love to live just as we need oxygen. He wants us to live in love with each other. He wants us to live in a way such that our consciences are clear. You may or may not agree with certain of those ways, but they are all good ways to a happy life. And, though we all have times when we go against these ways and/or our consciences, we still have ways to nurture and regain our love by regretting the wrongs we’ve done, seeking forgiveness from the one we’ve wronged and from God, and doing our best to make up for the wrong.

 

[fhansen]

Greetings,

I don’t believe sin exists. Of course, many would say I’m a sinner in denial, or that satan is tricking me into feeling more comfortable with my sins. I disagree.

I’ve been told that sin, by definition, is a act performed against the known will of God. It is a clear decision to disobey.

If, for example, someone kills someone. The Church would say, “that person committed a sin, they chose to disobey against the known will of God”. Do sane people kill people, however? I’m not talking about military troops or anything like that, but when the average person kills someone, are they choosing to do so? Are they sinning? I would side more with the idea that they likely have some sort of psychological issue. If this is the case, they did not knowingly choose to sin, but rather, their issue caused them to sin. It’s not as if some fallen angel whispered into their ear, and said “ssssssinnner, kill himmmmmmm”. That’s cute, but unrealistic.

If, for example, I fornicate with someone, it’s probably out of love for them that I do so. It’s not a decision of disobeying, it’s acting on feelings, emotion, and human nature. We are sexual creatures by design, much like every other mammal on the planet. When we act on our sexual instincts, we’re acting like animals - which we are, albeit a bit higher up the chain. When I engage in this activity, I’m not saying “well God thinks this, and I don’t care, I do what I want!”, it’s more of “I care for this person, and I want to share myself with them.” Unfortunately, the Church makes me feel like a real Hitler for doing so, but given that the church pre-dates the Scarlet Letter and times when fornicators were killed, cast out, etc, I’m not surprised. In time, the old world will die off, and the new will take over.

It would seem as though “sins” have been more or less things looked down upon by the societies of old. If you do , you are a bad person, and need redemption! Shame on you!

Oh, and even if sin does exist, whose fault is it? Surely it is not Adam and Eve’s fault. It’s God’s fault for letting the ssssssnake down here! So you mean to tell me, God’s going to punish sinners, whom He indirectly caused to fall into sin?

I don’t know about all this.

The concept of sin simply presupposes that, yes Virginia, people can and do abuse their freedom by committing acts of evil that they could otherwise elect to avoid-IOW evil exists. And that evil is always done in the name of good, that is, people commit evil by desiring some greater good to come out of it in the process-even though the desire may be born of pure selfishness. The standard is love and anyway in which we act outside of that standard we sin, whether knowingly at the time or not. The alternative is that all human moral evil is an illusion.

 

[Bailey2]

Dictionary.com says “sin” is: “any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of** some **religious or moral principle” What were you quoting there, the Cathechism?

If you do not believe in sin, then the whole point of Christianity is lost. Likewise, if you choose to not believe in the theory of Jesus Christ, but rather, are open to the concept of A god (e.g. agnosticism), then sin isn’t something you worry about, and or believe in.

Hello again! I took the above quotes on sin from the Catechism of the Catholic Church because I thought that is what you were asking for a Catholic answer. As for sin and virtue, you cannot have one without the other in either direction. That is simply logic! Not sure what you are looking for but I’d be glad to give you the sources if you need them… but skimming these posts, it looks like you might be just wanting to intellectually challenge back and forth? (got kids; got to go again )

 

[jasphair]

it looks like you might be just wanting to intellectually challenge back and forth?

I want to feel loved by God, I want to feel His presence in my life (whilst living in a world which appears to be falling apart), and I want to be a happy, godly person, full of joy, and reaping the fruitfulness of life (e.g. loving wife, children, etc).

When I pray, I feel like it goes on deaf ears. When I go to Mass, I feel like a good person, but I don’t feel like I’m connecting with God. When I go to Eucharistic Adoration, I feel like I’m staring at a cracker. When I pray to Mary, I feel as though I might as well be praying to Kermit the Frog.

I believe I’m lacking a lot of love in my life, and as such, I’m becoming that terrible, horrific kind of person I discussed earlier. I’m bitter, angry, and confused. I’m sad, disappointed, and feel hopeless. I’m judgmental, argumentative, and ungrateful.

I’m sure that probably explains this entire post, haha.

 

[tobbias88]

This guy’s a troll…obviously.

Why not argue the moon is make of cheese - that would make more sense!

 

[jasphair]

This guy’s a troll…obviously.

Why not argue the moon is make of cheese - that would make more sense!

I’m actually not a troll, but thanks.

 

[FMLJoliecouer]

I’m actually not a troll, but thanks.

I do not think you are a troll, and anyone who calls you a troll should take a look at themselves and their own imperfections first.

Peace to all

 

[clmowry]

Is there no such a thing as right or wrong, good or evil, in your opinion?

Are all acts morally neutral?

Chuck

Greetings,

I don’t believe sin exists. Of course, many would say I’m a sinner in denial, or that satan is tricking me into feeling more comfortable with my sins. I disagree.

I’ve been told that sin, by definition, is a act performed against the known will of God. It is a clear decision to disobey.

If, for example, someone kills someone. The Church would say, “that person committed a sin, they chose to disobey against the known will of God”. Do sane people kill people, however? I’m not talking about military troops or anything like that, but when the average person kills someone, are they choosing to do so? Are they sinning? I would side more with the idea that they likely have some sort of psychological issue. If this is the case, they did not knowingly choose to sin, but rather, their issue caused them to sin. It’s not as if some fallen angel whispered into their ear, and said “ssssssinnner, kill himmmmmmm”. That’s cute, but unrealistic.

If, for example, I fornicate with someone, it’s probably out of love for them that I do so. It’s not a decision of disobeying, it’s acting on feelings, emotion, and human nature. We are sexual creatures by design, much like every other mammal on the planet. When we act on our sexual instincts, we’re acting like animals - which we are, albeit a bit higher up the chain. When I engage in this activity, I’m not saying “well God thinks this, and I don’t care, I do what I want!”, it’s more of “I care for this person, and I want to share myself with them.” Unfortunately, the Church makes me feel like a real Hitler for doing so, but given that the church pre-dates the Scarlet Letter and times when fornicators were killed, cast out, etc, I’m not surprised. In time, the old world will die off, and the new will take over.

It would seem as though “sins” have been more or less things looked down upon by the societies of old. If you do , you are a bad person, and need redemption! Shame on you!

Oh, and even if sin does exist, whose fault is it? Surely it is not Adam and Eve’s fault. It’s God’s fault for letting the ssssssnake down here! So you mean to tell me, God’s going to punish sinners, whom He indirectly caused to fall into sin?

I don’t know about all this.

 

[jasphair]

Is there no such a thing as right or wrong, good or evil, in your opinion?

Are all acts morally neutral?

Chuck

Hey clmowry,

The idea I was suggesting, was that there is no such thing as sin, as we know it, in the sense that our actions do not disappoint or matter to our creator. I’m not denying that people do bad things. Things can be bad, without them being “sins”. When is it ever right to kill someone? I suppose if they’re hell-bent on killing you, and you kill them in self-defense, that’s one thing. But other than that, murders, wars, etc, are totally unnecessary. This goes back to my previous thought that if the world had more love (not necessarily more God), people wouldn’t have or want to kill. At the same time, there would still be those with psychological and other issues, so it’s not like we’d have complete world peace, but we’d at least be farther along then we are now, I’m guessing.

 

[Lizziebel]

Tobbias,

As a fellow Catholic striving to live a Christlike life of love and charity, I hope you will read the post above your last one and take notice of what jasphair is going through. Can you help us do God’s work here and be one of those through whom His loving, encouraging, and guiding voice is expressed at a time when it’s really needed?

Jasphair,

God does love you so much! My prayers are with you that you will again be able to feel God’s love and presence in your life, and that you will again live the kind of life filled with joy and love that you are seeking. What you are experiencing could be the spiritual effects of mortal sin (the world really does feel like it’s falling apart!), in your life and in the world. Confession can be a big help in your own life, to help you feel right with God and with yourself again.

There are times of what is called spiritual desolation (when you’re not feeling the connection and consolation of God’s love). Perhaps there is a greater good that comes from going through such a time for as long as it lasts, like a strengthening of faith after this time of doubt. Continue in your prayers and adoration; they are never wasted.

When I went through RCIA, there was a beautiful prayer that the class was given. Tonight, I’m reminded of it and found it on the internet in the hopes it might help. It’s called “I thirst for you,” and it speaks of the intense love Jesus has for us.

mcpriests.com/03_I_thirst_PrayerEN.htm

 

[jasphair]

Tobbias,

As a fellow Catholic striving to live a Christlike life of love and charity, I hope you will read the post above your last one and take notice of what jasphair is going through. Can you help us do God’s work here and be one of those through whom His loving, encouraging, and guiding voice is expressed at a time when it’s really needed?

Jasphair,

God does love you so much! My prayers are with you that you will again be able to feel God’s love and presence in your life, and that you will again live the kind of life filled with joy and love that you are seeking. What you are experiencing could be the spiritual effects of mortal sin (the world really does feel like it’s falling apart!), in your life and in the world. Confession can be a big help in your own life, to help you feel right with God and with yourself again.

There are times of what is called spiritual desolation (when you’re not feeling the connection and consolation of God’s love). Perhaps there is a greater good that comes from going through such a time for as long as it lasts, like a strengthening of faith after this time of doubt. Continue in your prayers and adoration; they are never wasted.

When I went through RCIA, there was a beautiful prayer that the class was given. Tonight, I’m reminded of it and found it on the internet in the hopes it might help. It’s called “I thirst for you,” and it speaks of the intense love Jesus has for us.

mcpriests.com/03_I_thirst_PrayerEN.htm

Lizziebel,

That prayer was absolutely beautiful. I read the entire thing, and it is so touching. It warms my heart, but I still need more. I need to pray more, and I need to reach out more to God’s children.

Oh, and I’m currently going through RCIA now. I was baptized at a church many years ago, and have been attending a number of churches periodically. I thought for sure that coming to the Catholic Church would bring me closer to God than I’ve ever been, but it’s actually made me question things more!

 

[Lizziebel]

Jasphair,

I’m so glad you enjoyed the prayer

Prayers and reaching out to others I’m sure will help. Especially prayers on behalf of others, whether that be those in need of healing, the holy souls in purgatory, or the unborn, or anyone on a prayer list! One of the many beautiful things about the Catholic Church is that it offers so many beautiful and powerful prayers.

RCIA was a wonderful experience, and it’s a great time to ask all the many questions that inevitably get stirred up both in class and on here. There is so much to learn! I also found this forum really helpful in terms of learning about the whys and wherefores of different beliefs particular to Catholicism. I’ve got to get going for tonight, but hopefully I’ve been able to help out…at least a start…on the topic of sin. And hopefully we’ll all be able to help out on anything else you may be questioning, etc.

Talk to you later

 

[Cling2Cross]

Greetings,

I don’t believe sin exists. Of course, many would say I’m a sinner in denial, or that satan is tricking me into feeling more comfortable with my sins. I disagree.

I’ve been told that sin, by definition, is a act performed against the known will of God. It is a clear decision to disobey.

If, for example, someone kills someone. The Church would say, “that person committed a sin, they chose to disobey against the known will of God”. Do sane people kill people, however? I’m not talking about military troops or anything like that, but when the average person kills someone, are they choosing to do so? Are they sinning? I would side more with the idea that they likely have some sort of psychological issue. If this is the case, they did not knowingly choose to sin, but rather, their issue caused them to sin. It’s not as if some fallen angel whispered into their ear, and said “ssssssinnner, kill himmmmmmm”. That’s cute, but unrealistic.

If, for example, I fornicate with someone, it’s probably out of love for them that I do so. It’s not a decision of disobeying, it’s acting on feelings, emotion, and human nature. We are sexual creatures by design, much like every other mammal on the planet. When we act on our sexual instincts, we’re acting like animals - which we are, albeit a bit higher up the chain. When I engage in this activity, I’m not saying “well God thinks this, and I don’t care, I do what I want!”, it’s more of “I care for this person, and I want to share myself with them.” Unfortunately, the Church makes me feel like a real Hitler for doing so, but given that the church pre-dates the Scarlet Letter and times when fornicators were killed, cast out, etc, I’m not surprised. In time, the old world will die off, and the new will take over.

It would seem as though “sins” have been more or less things looked down upon by the societies of old. If you do , you are a bad person, and need redemption! Shame on you!

Oh, and even if sin does exist, whose fault is it? Surely it is not Adam and Eve’s fault. It’s God’s fault for letting the ssssssnake down here! So you mean to tell me, God’s going to punish sinners, whom He indirectly caused to fall into sin?

I don’t know about all this.

We are sinners by nature…we are dead in sin and we know right from wrong.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, (Romans 2:14-15 NAS95)

We have a spirit - we can make choices. Adam and Eve had free will and God ALLOWED them to sin if they so wished. The curse followed and we are all sinners by nature. You know God…

because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:19-20 NAS95)

And so, sin exists and it is treason against the highest of all being. He has infinite dignity and the crime requires infinite punishment…

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:46 NAS95)

And, for you to be saved from the power and penalty of sin, must bow to the only one who could pay for your sin…the infinite, innocent, Son of God…

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:21 NAS95)

You know that there is right and wrong - we all do - and have all fallen short…

as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” (Romans 3:10-12 NAS95)

All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. (Isaiah 53:6 NAS95)

Come to the only one who can save you.

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. (Revelation 22:17 NAS95)

 

[Bailey2]

I want to feel loved by God, I want to feel His presence in my life (whilst living in a world which appears to be falling apart), and I want to be a happy, godly person, full of joy, and reaping the fruitfulness of life (e.g. loving wife, children, etc).

When I pray, I feel like it goes on deaf ears. When I go to Mass, I feel like a good person, but I don’t feel like I’m connecting with God. When I go to Eucharistic Adoration, I feel like I’m staring at a cracker. When I pray to Mary, I feel as though I might as well be praying to Kermit the Frog.

I believe I’m lacking a lot of love in my life, and as such, I’m becoming that terrible, horrific kind of person I discussed earlier. I’m bitter, angry, and confused. I’m sad, disappointed, and feel hopeless. I’m judgmental, argumentative, and ungrateful.

I’m sure that probably explains this entire post, haha.

So this is a genuine struggle. Bless you! There was another post here about love: “Help describe love to a person who did not feel it from parents” I wrote a piece there about my father and grandmother. Perhaps it would give you comfort even though it is not the same struggle you are having. Also, if you are angry, bitter, confused, sad, disappointed, and feeling hopeless, I agree with whoever said you should perhaps find a priest to air all this to. God is in people through His Spirit. You are in RCIA? Great! You have a place to air some of these questions!

 

[Cling2Cross]

Lizziebel,

That prayer was absolutely beautiful. I read the entire thing, and it is so touching. It warms my heart, but I still need more. I need to pray more, and I need to reach out more to God’s children.

Oh, and I’m currently going through RCIA now. I was baptized at a church many years ago, and have been attending a number of churches periodically. I thought for sure that coming to the Catholic Church would bring me closer to God than I’ve ever been, but it’s actually made me question things more!

Jas…

Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God and that Christ is God?