Sin, forgiveness and divine justice

[Nick362]

Thank you all for the information. I understand that Christ died for the sins man repents; however, those sins have caused an imbalance in God’s love, mercy and justice. Divine justice requires that, even after repentance, the sinner must make restitution to balance the equation. This restitution is temporal “Punishment” which given either in the physical life of the sinner “. . . or in the next life.” Then, Christ basically opened the gates of paradise for those who chose to repent (free will) but did not forgive restitution! At death of the physical body, which remains in the earth until the day of judgment, cannot incur temporal punishment. Thus, Catholic theology says that the soul then must take up the remaining temporal punishment “. . . by searing flames . . . “for some period of time until cleansed. There are two problems here: First, souls cannot burn or feel pain (Ref. CCC), Second, the concept of time is not spiritual in that it puts a qualifier on God’s Kingdom, which is God, and God is infinite and time has no meaning. God is God without time – God exists in the past, the present and the future simultaneously; if He did not then God does not meet the Catholic definition of God. Time started for man at creation and time will end for man on the Last Day. Further, does a poor starving man with a starving family stealing one apple from the apple orchard incur the same temporal punishment as a bishop, duke, earl or king (30 years’ war in Germany) stealing the same apple; and if stealing more than one apple is the temporal punishment additive. (Ref. Anselm, Augustine, Aquinas, etc.). Catholic theology seems to be in a loop trying to explain these aberrations only capable of metaphorical theology to satisfy these questions man has. Nick

 

[phoage]

Nick,

…God is infinite and time has no meaning… Yes! God created space/time and is “outside” of his creation. This is not something that we creatures can experience this side of eternity. I do not know if we ever can and wrapping our head around it gives me a head ache. Having said that:

There are two problems here: First, souls cannot burn or feel pain (Ref. CCC), Second, the concept of time is not spiritual…

Problem 1: We know that we will undergo purification and that it will be painful (emotionally, intellectually, spiritually) or stressful. Paul used the words “…saved but as through fire.” (1Cor 3:15) We know that souls are not physical constructs and so cannot feel physical pain but the description is metaphorical.

Problem 2: Time does not exist in the afterlife but how do you describe punishment so we creatures can understand it? A certain amount of “pain” for a certain amount of “time” is the way the church has selected. It is not correct but it is analogous.

I hope this is of some help

Patrick
AMDG

 

[Vico]

…
Catholic theology says that the soul then must take up the remaining temporal punishment “. . . by searing flames . . . “for some period of time until cleansed. There are two problems here: First, souls cannot burn or feel pain (Ref. CCC), Second, the concept of time is not spiritual in that it puts a qualifier on God’s Kingdom, which is God, and God is infinite and time has no meaning. …

The person is a composite of imperishible soul and body, and th esoul is an incomplete substance. When in the purgatorial state, there is no body. The temporal punishment is due to unhealthy attachment to creatures and that will be removed before receiving the Beatific Vision. The soul is temporal for it was created, whereas God is not a creature. A human has a soul which is spiritual, but angels are pure spiritual beings.

 

[Nick362]

The soul is not temporal because it was created, not Made! (CCC) The angels were created yet they are not temporal they are pure spirits that were created, not made. And in your response: what are “unhealthy attachments” and HOW is it/they removed?

Nick

 

[Vico]

The soul is not temporal because it was created, not Made! (CCC) The angels were created yet they are not temporal they are pure spirits that were created, not made. And in your response: what are “unhealthy attachments” and HOW is it/they removed?

Nick

The soul is not eternal (without beginning and end) because it was created ex nihilo. It was created at the same time as the body that it was infused into.

 

[Inquiry]

That baby’s soul is eternal and exist from the beginning of time to the end. But did it exist from the beginning of time to the end yesterday?

 

[Vico]

… And in your response: what are “unhealthy attachments” and HOW is it/they removed?

Nick

The “unhealthy attachment to creatures” is attachment to sins. These lead to not observing the standard prescribed by the moral law.

Catechism

1472 … every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. …

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."84

 

[Nick362]

ex nihilo may sound good in Augustine and of course Aquinas but it is not dogma. Some current Catholic theology is putting forth 'Through the Power of God" instead of ex nihilo as modern Catholics are having trouble with the concept of nothing. Nothing cannot be explained theologically without employing other negatives. God did not create OUT OF NOTHING AS NOTHING DID NOT EXIST.
Nick

 

[steve-b]

[snip] for space

Catholic theology says that the soul then must take up the remaining temporal punishment “. . . by searing flames . . . “for some period of time until cleansed. There are two problems here: First, souls cannot burn or feel pain (Ref. CCC), Second, the concept of time is not spiritual in that it puts a qualifier on God’s Kingdom, which is God, and God is infinite and time has no meaning. God is God without time –

1. Purgatory in the Catechism is a very short subject.

HERE

Re: Time
2. yes there is no clock in eternity. No seconds, minutes, hours, days, week, months, years, etc. No Yesterday no tomorrow. Just the eternal now. Peter’s way of putting time in eternity into an analogy, was to say "to God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day" 2 Pet 3:8

Example: from Padre Pio (now Saint Padre Pio)

Pio, while saying mass one day, was visited by a deceased sacristan, (obviously this visit was allowed by God) who died some 70 yrs prior. The sacristan, said he is in purgatory. He has been there for not respecting the altar properly. He asked Pio to say a mass for him and he could go to heaven. Pio said that mass that day for him.

Fr Alessio who took care of Pio in his last yrs of life told me that story when I visited San Giovanni Rotondo.

To your point, Souls in the after life have no perception of time. Time doesn’t exist for them. They are now outside of time.

Nick362:

does a poor starving man with a starving family stealing one apple from the apple orchard incur the same temporal punishment as a bishop, duke, earl or king (30 years’ war in Germany) stealing the same apple; and if stealing more than one apple is the temporal punishment additive. (Ref. Anselm, Augustine, Aquinas, etc.). Catholic theology seems to be in a loop trying to explain these aberrations only capable of metaphorical theology to satisfy these questions man has. Nick

We know what we know about God and what we need to do and believe, because of what has been passed onto us, by sacred traditions, both oral and written and the teaching magisterium of Our Lord’s one and only Catholic Church He established. . We know there is heaven, purgatory and hell.

In the end, God judges us. We should leave it at that.

 

[Vico]

ex nihilo may sound good in Augustine and of course Aquinas but it is not dogma. Some current Catholic theology is putting forth 'Through the Power of God" instead of ex nihilo as modern Catholics are having trouble with the concept of nothing. Nothing cannot be explained theologically without employing other negatives. God did not create OUT OF NOTHING AS NOTHING DID NOT EXIST.
Nick

Creation Ex nihilo is a dogma of faith – against pantheists and materialists. See the Vatican Council I:

Si quis non confiteatur mundum resque omnes, quae in eo continentur, et spirituales et materiales, secondum totam suam substantiam a Deo ex nihilo esse productas anathema sit.

If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing let him be anathema.

English (Complete section from Denzinger Sources of Catholic Dogma)

1. God the Creator of all things

1801 1. [Against all errors about the existence of God the Creator]. If anyone shall have denied the one true God, Creator and Lord of visible and invisible things: let him be anathema [cf. n. 1782 ].

1802 2. [Against materialism]. If anyone shall not be ashamed to affirm that nothing exists except matter: let him be anathema [cf. n. 1783].

1803 3.[Against pantheism] .If anyone shall say that one and the same thing is the substance or essence of God and of all things: let him be anathema [cf. n.1782 ].

1804 4. [Against special forms of pantheism]. If anyone shall say that finite things, both corporeal and spiritual, or at least the spiritual, have emanated from the divine substance, or, that the divine essence by a manifestation or evolution of itself becomes all things, or, finally, that God is universal or indefinite being, because by determining Himself, He created all things distinct in genera, in species, and in individuals: let him be anathema.

1805 5. [Against pantheists and materialists]. If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing [cf. n. 1783 ],

[Against the Guentherians], or, shall have said that God created not by a volition free of all necessity, but as necessarily as He necessarily loves Himself [cf. n. 1783],

[Against the Guentherians and the Hermesians], or, shall have denied that the world was created to the glory of God: let him be anathema.