Sin is not imputed when there is no law

[Erick_Ybarra]

I’ve been trying to work through the Catechism on original sin. But there is no direct address to what St. Paul says in Romans 5:12-13 where he says ‘‘sin is not imputed when there is no law’’ and 4:15 ‘‘where there is no law there is no transgression’’.

Is he saying that the human beings who lived between Adam and moses did not have their sin imputed to then and they did not die for their own sin? If sin is not imputed and no one can transgress when there is no law, then doesn’t this mean that what Paul is saying is that God is not looking at the hhuman beings who lived from Adam to moses but sees then through Adam who is their sinful representative? I know this is a protestant argument but I wanted to know the catholic understanding.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

This is the meaning. In fact he went into detail about it right after that.

It does not mean that the law is bad or that we should be lawless. It does not mean that sin cannot exist without human laws.

It means that if we don’t understand something we cannot sin. God told them not to eat it. That makes it law because God said it. Depends on your interpretation of the word “law” no?

I remember that part of this is possibly written in code (he goes on to say that people in positions of authority are put there by God and we should trust them. This would have to be code. Either that or I am completely missing something. The gospel directly contradicts the notion. So does what we see in the world. I am considering a new possibility right now I will have to let it develop to find it’s origin I will post more on that later. We all know if we find scripture to contradict scripture then we are victims of a bad seed planted by satan).

I am actually about to go re-read that right now to make sure I am not misguiding you. I know he goes in more detail about it right after that. You should keep reading.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Okay. I don’t remember if he said we should trust them or if we should just deal with them.

It is possible that what is meant is that regardless of who is in what position, God’s will will be done so we should not go directly against people in authority but we should not trust them either.

This is most likely and feels right. Satan is trying to tell me not to bother going back and reading it. Guess what I am about to do .

 

[JerryZ]

I’ve been trying to work through the Catechism on original sin. But there is no direct address to what St. Paul says in Romans 5:12-13 where he says ‘‘sin is not imputed when there is no law’’ and 4:15 ‘‘where there is no law there is no transgression’’.

Is he saying that the human beings who lived between Adam and moses did not have their sin imputed to then and they did not die for their own sin? If sin is not imputed and no one can transgress when there is no law, then doesn’t this mean that what Paul is saying is that God is not looking at the hhuman beings who lived from Adam to moses but sees then through Adam who is their sinful representative? I know this is a protestant argument but I wanted to know the catholic understanding.

Original sin transcends all laws it is an objective sin that all mankind is saddled with from the moment of conception, even today.
before there was a written law there is the Moral law that is written in our hearts.
He’s simply saying that if an act is not against the moral and written law then it is not sinfull.
We should be carefull to try to understand the context of the “written law” for the jews it would be the rabbinic laws for us Catholics the canon laws while for a pagan the Moral laws written in his heart would appliy.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Okay I am certain it is written in code. I am grateful I read it again. It is code.

If you remember, our Lord specifically said that the authorities are the enemies. We are called to fight evil with good. This means be obedient to authority. There is one authority that is God.

The rest was just covering his tracks to try to keep the manuscript from being burned and to possibly to avoid further persecution.

I love the bible. To understand it fully you have to read it.

I don’t know what the Church says about whether or not that is code but it is quite obvious. If something contradicts the Lord’s word and was written by one of the greatest followers of the Lord you might have to think outside of the box. He knew anyone who read the Gospel and believed would see through this code. He also knew that it is true enough not to lead people astray because it, is for the most part, true.

He pulled off quite the escape too!

What a great man.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Paul says that ‘‘all sinned’’. Does that mean that we really sinned physically and ontologically when Adam sinned? And if not, then that means we are held liable to the punishment of death that was put on Adam, which doesn’t this support the reformed teaching that human beings are condemned by no work of their own (originally) and thus the parrallel the elect are justified by no work of their own?

And when it says that sin is not imputed, wouldn’t this mean that sin is not punished where there is no law, but since all died between Adam and moses where there was no law, doesn’t this mean that their own sin is not imputed to them but Adams sin is imputed and thus they die.??

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Paul says that ‘‘all sinned’’. Does that mean that we really sinned physically and ontologically when Adam sinned? And if not, then that means we are held liable to the punishment of death that was put on Adam, which doesn’t this support the reformed teaching that human beings are condemned by no work of their own (originally) and thus the parrallel the elect are justified by no work of their own?

And when it says that sin is not imputed, wouldn’t this mean that sin is not punished where there is no law, but since all died between Adam and moses where there was no law, doesn’t this mean that their own sin is not imputed to them but Adams sin is imputed and thus they die.??

I will comment on the part I know is correct. The elect are justified by no work of their own. This is a true statement and is an idea found in more than one scripture. It is not by your works on earth that you are judged. I, and probably others, draw the conclusion it is more about the acceptance of guidance from the Lord than anything.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

I don’t remember the part where St. Paul says all sinned. However we do all incur the punishment for original sin and also we have all sinned and fallen. I haven’t met anyone who hasn’t, have you?

 

[Trishie]

There is a law that exist deeper than what is stated as being law

Romans 2:14-16

“14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”

MORAL CONSCIENCE

1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

I. THE JUDGMENT OF CONSCIENCE

1777 Moral conscience,48 present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil.49 It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.50

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Yes. I agree. I mean God punished the world through the flood because of their sin. But then how can we possible interpret and reconcile Romans 4:15 and 5:12-14. I just want to know how to put this all together

 

[FaithInTheSon]

okay i see what your saying. you are jumping around a bit your lucky i do that a lot too so i follow you.

sin exists without law. say adam stole from eve when god didn’t tell him not too. the sin would incur no debt (our debt is payed). it is still sin but no1 is held accountable. we are all guilty of the original sin which is trusting the snake over god and eating the insert fruit here, therefore also knowing the difference between good and evil. after that, we, by default, have the law in us therefore are accountable for sin. if no one is held accountable the whole definition of sin changes. words are deceptive.

as for 5 12. He is NOT speaking of earthly works here. He is speaking of spiritual works.

As I said words can be very deceptive. Continue to seek and you will find.

Whenever you find scripture to contradict scripture the enemy has planted a evil seed in your mind. I find that most of the time the way out of the loop is to consider what you haven’t considered yet and that is normally the definition of words.

For instance “Like God”

When we at the apple we were deceived when the snake said “you will be like God”.
If that was God’s plan for us anyways, why is that a problem?

Because “Like God” can mean more than one thing (also for trusting in something other than our Father’s word which is by default what is best for us and also law). Words are very deceptive clarity is very much required.

I find this to be a critical error in the application of the Church’s findings. It is not the findings that are the problem it is the application of the teachings.

EDIT: Always consider that I might be wrong like any other person out there. If you see a gap in my logic definitely point it out. Just because it makes sense and sounds good does not make it right. Try to question it.

 

[Richca]

QUOTE=Erick_Ybarra;9892189]I’ve been trying to work through the Catechism on original sin. But there is no direct address to what St. Paul says in Romans 5:12-13 where he says ‘‘sin is not imputed when there is no law’’ and 4:15 ‘‘where there is no law there is no transgression’’.

Romans 5: 12-14: I think Paul’s theme here is that by the sin of Adam death has come upon all mankind. He elaborates more on this in verses 15-19.

Roman 5:13: “for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.” I think here Paul is proving his point that Adam’s sin brought death to all mankind. For even though mankind from Adam to Moses didn’t transgress a formal command from God like Adam did or the Israelites through the law, they still died. Paul can’t mean here that sin is not accounted at all where there is no law (the Mosaic law) for that wouldn’t be reasonable. I;m sure he was aware of the flood story. Also he would be contradicting what he says in Romans Chapter 2 and probably many other places in his writings as well as many passages and stories in the Old Testament.

Is he saying that the human beings who lived between Adam and moses did not have their sin imputed to then and they did not die for their own sin?

No, mankind who lived between Adam and Moses do have their sins accounted to them but not in the way of transgressing a formal command from God as St Paul says " All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it." ( Romans 2:12) They die because of the sin of Adam and will be judged according to their works.

If sin is not imputed and no one can transgress when there is no law, then doesn’t this mean that what Paul is saying is that God is not looking at the hhuman beings who lived from Adam to moses but sees then through Adam who is their sinful representative? I know this is a protestant argument

No, Paul is not saying this and what I’ve said above explains I think what Paul is saying.