Sin of Deicide?

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Wondering if anybody could answer this but before I ask, these do not reflect my views! Just interested. Are Jews guilty of the sin of Decide? I found this article on the SSPX website sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/jews_guilty_of_deicide.htm and thought it was quite interesting. We read in the Gospels that the Jewish people, despite the pleas of Pilate, insisted that Jesus be crucified, calling out His blood be upon us and upon our children." (Matthew 27:25). Does this mean that the Jews are cursed? Not in a Nazi race way of course (as many Jews converted and became Christian).

The CCC says ‘As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council: . . . neither all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . the Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.(597). But doesn’t this contradict 2000 years of Catholic teaching?

This is also quite interesting crc-internet.org/lib3.htm.

Thank you to anyone who answers.
 
sspx and the sludge on their website is a banned topic here, I think you can see why
 
Without trying to defend their ‘cursed’ stance, was that not the official view of the Catholic Church until the Second Vatican Council?
 
SSPX are heretics, plain and simple. I don’t mean that in the pejorative sense of the word as mere name calling, but quite seriously, as the Church defines heretics. They know better but they refuse to hold to the teachings of the Catholic Church. The Church is right and they are wrong.

Besides, why would anyone want to believe that God is so merciless and so stupid as to not know that the phrase shouted by the crowd didn’t represent the whole of the Jewish people nor did they particularly understand what it was they were saying and doing.

On the cross Jesus interceded with the Father for all those who had rejected him and crucified him, Romans and Jews alike when he prayed, “Father forgive them, they know not what they do.” I’ll take Jesus’ approach to the question over those of anti-semitic heretics any day.
 
Are they actually heretics? I knew they were schismatics but I didn’t think heresy was the right word. For example (and you’ll probably know a lot more about this than me) but I’ve read that the Second Vatican Council was Pastoral as opposed to Doctrinal. Pope Paul VI claimed that:

'“Given the pastoral character of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner dogmas endowed with the note of infallibility.”

Given that, when the SSPX promote their anit-Semitic views, which are opposed to non-doctrinal Vatican II, are they actually heretics?
 
Are they actually heretics? I knew they were schismatics but I didn’t think heresy was the right word. For example (and you’ll probably know a lot more about this than me) but I’ve read that the Second Vatican Council was Pastoral as opposed to Doctrinal. Pope Paul VI claimed that:

'“Given the pastoral character of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner dogmas endowed with the note of infallibility.”

Given that, when the SSPX promote their anit-Semitic views, which are opposed to non-doctrinal Vatican II, are they actually heretics?
When people publicly declare heretical views that makes them heretics, yes.
 
My question was actually if Vatican II was only Pastoral and no doctrinal statements were actually made then is it heresy to disagee with the views expressed from it? It is anti-Semitism to say God has rejected the Jews but is it heresy?
 
My question was actually if Vatican II was only Pastoral and no doctrinal statements were actually made then is it heresy to disagee with the views expressed from it? It is anti-Semitism to say God has rejected the Jews but is it heresy?
“only” pastoral? It was a council of the church & not to be dismissed.

Plenty of doctrinal statements were made - possibly no new doctrines or dogmas were defined - but plenty of doctrinal statements were made.
 
“only” pastoral? It was a council of the church & not to be dismissed.

Plenty of doctrinal statements were made - possibly no new doctrines or dogmas were defined - but plenty of doctrinal statements were made.
No anathemas were declared. Partly because the whole language and theatre of anathematisation had got out of date and was beginning to look silly, partly because the Protestants this time accepted the invitation that had originally been made at Trent, and it wasn’t felt helpful to conclude by condemning their positions.
 
The CCC says ‘As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council: . . . neither all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . the Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.(597). But doesn’t this contradict 2000 years of Catholic teaching?

This is also quite interesting crc-internet.org/lib3.htm.

Thank you to anyone who answers.
Jews rejected Jesus, Jesus didn’t reject the Jews, although He foretold that He would not be acceptable to them. Most Jews still reject Jesus as their King.

Jews called down curses upon themselves, but nowhere does scripture say that they are “accursed” for that act. Neither is the word used of Adam and Eve, despite popular misconceptions. “Accursed” has a technical theological meaning. The House of David is accursed because of David’s sin with Bathsheba - “therefore the sword shall never be absent from thy house” and most Jews accept this as the explanation for the current troubles in the Middle East.
 
I believe that the Jews of the day represent us. There are those of us who glorify Him one day while crucifying Him the next. We need to learn to read the Scriptures using the three senses, which always includes how it pertains to us.

On All Saints day, we left our Mass and passed by a SSPX church that was just getting out. My children mockingly chimed out, “We’re not welcome, we’re not welcome!” They have written right on their walls that one has to go to confession to one of THEIR priests in order to attend there. You also have to wear their garb. I believe it is impossible not to see this as sinful pride.
 
No anathemas were declared. Partly because the whole language and theatre of anathematisation had got out of date and was beginning to look silly, partly because the Protestants this time accepted the invitation that had originally been made at Trent, and it wasn’t felt helpful to conclude by condemning their positions.
If no anathmas were made does that mean that Vatican II is still infallible? If it is infallible on the basis that it is simply a council then why did previous councils issue anathemas? Sorry if I’m trying your patience but I am genuninely interested in trying to find out more about Catholicism. Except one of the websites I’ve been reading up on are very traditional/schismatic so I’m looking to see how Catholics refute these arguments.
 
Certainly all Jews were not guilty of the crimes of the passion in a personal way, and certainly none today. But I’ll discuss that later.

As for “deicide,” Aquinas discusses it thusly:

"Among the Jews some were elders, and others of lesser degree. Now according to the author of De Qq. Nov. et Vet. Test., qu. lxvi, the elders, who were called “rulers, knew,” as did also the devils, “that He was the Christ promised in the Law: for they saw all the signs in Him which the prophets said would come to pass: but they did not know the mystery of His Godhead.” Consequently the Apostle says: “If they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.” It must, however, be understood that their ignorance did not excuse them from crime, because it was, as it were, affected ignorance. For they saw manifest signs of His Godhead; yet they perverted them out of hatred and envy of Christ; neither would they believe His words, whereby He avowed that He was the Son of God. Hence He Himself says of them (John 15:22): “If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.” And afterwards He adds (John 15:24): “If I had not done among them the works that no other man hath done, they would not have sin.” And so the expression employed by Job (21:14) can be accepted on their behalf: “(Who) said to God: depart from us, we desire not the knowledge of Thy ways.”

But those of lesser degree–namely, the common folk–who had not grasped the mysteries of the Scriptures, did not fully comprehend that He was the Christ or the Son of God. For although some of them believed in Him, yet the multitude did not; and if they doubted sometimes whether He was the Christ, on account of the manifold signs and force of His teaching, as is stated John 7:31,41, nevertheless they were deceived afterwards by their rulers, so that they did not believe Him to be the Son of God or the Christ. Hence Peter said to them: “I know that you did it through ignorance, as did also your rulers”–namely, because they were seduced by the rulers."

So…the common folk of “the crowd” definitely aren’t guilty of “deicide,” because they didn’t know He was the Christ so they were ignorant (though they still committed a grave injustice at the urging of the chief priests).

Pilate is generally thought of being guilty mainly of complacency, but was certainly even more ignorant of the mystery of God Incarnate and can’t be held accountable for any “deicide”…and the ignorant soldiers simply believing that they were executing another criminal they had never heard of were even less guilty (though some were undoubtedly very cruel and torturous as a seperate sin)

This leaves Judas and the Jewish Leaders.

The Jewish Leaders, learned in the Law and Prophets almost certainly knew Jesus to be the Christ. Any ignorance was culpable. The chief priests were at least guilty of “messiah-cide”…but they probably didnt know that the messiah was God Himself incarnate…though they saw the signs and so that ignorance is culpable too. They can be somewhat said to have committed a “deicide” if such a thing can truly be said of anyone.

Judas is in my mind the most guilty (but Aquinas may disagree and argue it was the elders; see here). Judas could not plead any sort of ignorance about Jesus being Christ or God. Judas turned him over for money, not necessarily directly causing or intending death. He also had a part of “deicide”.

I would say due to the act of killing Christ being a very diffuse one with many players…“deicide” cannot be pinned on any one person or group…but the jewish elders and judas, I believe, can each be blamed with a sort of “half-deicide” each, which adds up to the full. The act of judas colluding with the elders was deicide…though because several were involved, no one can bear the full title individual to that crime.
 
As for the Jews today, obviously they do not have any *personal *guilt. You can’t be guilty personally for something you were not alive at the time to do!

“His blood be on us and our children,” may have been said…but God doesn’t punish the children for the crime of the parents as Jesus revealed with the blind man. Why would God listen to the crowd’s request to curse and blame innocent babies in the future for something they didnt personally do?

However, the Jews do have a situation analogous to Original Sin: they are not personally guilty…but they are still born outside the special relationship with God they once had.

Like Adam and Eve, the Jews once had a special relationship with God. Adam and Eve rejected God, and lost grace and Eden. So too the Jews rejected Christ and lost their supernatural claim. The descendents of Adam and Eve don’t have personal sin because of this. The descendents of the christ-rejecting jews don’t have personal sin because of this.

But the descendents of both Adam and the Jews each are obviously born without the special relationship their ancestors used to have title to.

Sons of Adam are born outside the sanctifying grace humans once originally had…however God is still especially concerned for humans, so grace and paradise can be regained through baptism into the Church (the new Eden). However, humans must now share the garden with sinners and angels.

So too, the jews since the time of Christ are born outside the chosen status which jews once had…however God is still especially concerned for jews, and the divine community and kingdom can be regained through baptism into the Church (the new Israel) however, they now must share the kingdom with gentiles equally.
 
I find the resources on the SSPX website to be quite informative. Despite their schismatic actions, the SSPX is still very much correct in doctrine- the issue with them has to do with authority, not faith.
 
I find the resources on the SSPX website to be quite informative. Despite their schismatic actions, the SSPX is still very much correct in doctrine- the issue with them has to do with authority, not faith.
They are and they aren’t. They have a VERY narrow and limited view of Tradition and history. Their problem is not so much what they see as true, but rather what they misconstrue as error. This is a common trap that groups fall into who define themselves solely by what they are protesting against.
 
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