Sin of presumption

[JFonseka]

Not quite, because confessing the sin of presumption and willfully being sorry for it with a firm purpose of amendment is all that is required. Presumption is not the unforgivable sin.

You didn’t read quite right, you only quoted a part of it, i do not disagree with what you said. But merely going in while having premeditated that you will confess your sin of premeditation and the other sin makes the confession invalid. Unless you feel true remorse, which is quite unlikely immediately after having done it. And we must all aim for perfect contrition, sorrow for having committed the sins because it offends God.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

2092.* There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities,(hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).*

Holland

This thread is a little different than the way I was taught, so I think I should offer you an alternative prospectus. Presumption is the sin of relying on man verses – God, Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the mother Church (Church authority), so some examples:

Not going to Church – The presumption is God knows I am spiritual
Not going to confession – The presumption is God knows I am sorry
Divorce and remarriage – The presumption is God knows my case is different
Alternative Churches – The presumption is God knows we care and will save us

 

[Holland]

You didn’t read quite right, you only quoted a part of it, i do not disagree with what you said. But merely going in while having premeditated that you will confess your sin of premeditation and the other sin makes the confession invalid. Unless you feel true remorse, which is quite unlikely immediately after having done it. And we must all aim for perfect contrition, sorrow for having committed the sins because it offends God.

I am not getting what you are saying. So if you go to Confession with the thought that you will confess the sin and also the sin of presumption attached to that sin then the confession is invalid??? I disagree with your assessment of remorse being unlikely when committing this sin. The few times I have committed the sin of presumption the remorse was overwhelming.

 

[porthos11]

Unless you feel true remorse, which is quite unlikely immediately after having done it. And we must all aim for perfect contrition, sorrow for having committed the sins because it offends God.

Herein lies the problem. We do not need to feel anything to have contrition. Contrition is not dependent upon any feeling. It’s perfectly possible to be truly sorry and sorrowful for your sins without feeling anything at all. Contrition is an act of the will, not of the emotions.

It’s this act of the will the Church requires.

But you’ve hit the danger of presumption on the head. The most deadly thing about presumption is that it can even poison the will and remove the desire to repent and amend, and can be a big step towards final impenitence.

 

[Peccata]

Holland

This thread is a little different than the way I was taught, so I think I should offer you an alternative prospectus. Presumption is the sin of relying on man verses – God, Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the mother Church (Church authority), so some examples:

Not going to Church – The presumption is God knows I am spiritual
Not going to confession – The presumption is God knows I am sorry
Divorce and remarriage – The presumption is God knows my case is different
Alternative Churches – The presumption is God knows we care and will save us

Thanks so much for this post! Now I really GET this facet of presumption. This makes so much sense to me. So many non-practicing Catholics that I know are in this rut.

Peccata

 

[Shoshana]

Holland

This thread is a little different than the way I was taught, so I think I should offer you an alternative prospectus. Presumption is the sin of relying on man verses – God, Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the mother Church (Church authority), so some examples:

Not going to Church – The presumption is God knows I am spiritual
Not going to confession – The presumption is God knows I am sorry
Divorce and remarriage – The presumption is God knows my case is different
Alternative Churches – The presumption is God knows we care and will save us

Thanks so much for this post! Now I really GET this facet of presumption. This makes so much sense to me. So many non-practicing Catholics that I know are in this rut.

Peccata

Is this not called relativity?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Is this not called relativity?

Relativity involves violating some rules which are deemed less important than other rules. The offender cites the “others are doing far worse”. So relative to those who do a lot of fornicating the guy with 2 marriages is relatively better? Or the guy who only steals from company occasionally claims he has to be okay because others steal from the company every day, so relative to them he is way ahead. Or compared to an abortion the birth control pill user has to be ahead right? (relatively speaking) etc, etc

hope that helps

 

[jmcrae]

Relativity involves violating some rules which are deemed less important than other rules. The offender cites the “others are doing far worse”. So relative to those who do a lot of fornicating the guy with 2 marriages is relatively better? Or the guy who only steals from company occasionally claims he has to be okay because others steal from the company every day, so relative to them he is way ahead. Or compared to an abortion the birth control pill user has to be ahead right? (relatively speaking) etc, etc

hope that helps

All of them are going to Hell, of course. Some are just going deeper in than others.

 

[Shoshana]

Relativity involves violating some rules which are deemed less important than other rules. The offender cites the “others are doing far worse”. So relative to those who do a lot of fornicating the guy with 2 marriages is relatively better? Or the guy who only steals from company occasionally claims he has to be okay because others steal from the company every day, so relative to them he is way ahead. Or compared to an abortion the birth control pill user has to be ahead right? (relatively speaking) etc, etc

hope that helps

That helps. I thought it was this case scenario. Case scenario: A wife/mother of 4 leaves her very abusive husband of 22 years. Her marriage is annulled. But not before breaking up another marriage becasue the still married husband was in a bad marriage himself and they were young lovers way back in their early teens. Well…she deserves a break because of what life has thrown, look at what she suffered. And this is real love and she deserves that at least. End of case scenario.

I thought that was relativity. Excusing sin…

 

[jmcrae]

Excusing sin because of the unhappy circumstances surrounding the person when they sinned is a prevelant modern disease.

Pointing such things out causes one to be labelled “un-Christian,” because “Jesus would understand.”

 

[Shoshana]

Excusing sin because of the unhappy circumstances surrounding the person when they sinned is a prevelant modern disease.

Pointing such things out causes one to be labelled “un-Christian,” because “Jesus would understand.”

So, is this being relative also?

 

[jmcrae]

So, is this being relative also?

You mean being excused of sin because you were unhappy at the time of the sin?

Yes, I certainly think so.

I was brought up that we behave well no matter how we are feeling. Our feelings are never an excuse to do wrong - ever.

 

[Holland]

So is the sin of presumption always mortal in nature? I’m thinking the first kind of presumption where man presumes upon his own capacities to save himself might not be a mortal sin.

 

[jmcrae]

So is the sin of presumption always mortal in nature? I’m thinking the first kind of presumption where man presumes upon his own capacities to save himself might not be a mortal sin.

How would it not be, since God is the only one who can actually save us?

 

[Holland]

How would it not be, since God is the only one who can actually save us?

Well, in the examples Texas Roofer gave us, not going to Mass or Confession, going to Alternative Churches, etc., I think a good portion of those people are just poorly taught and don’t really know what they are doing sooo the sin isn’t mortal if they don’t really understand what they are doing.

 

[Shoshana]

Well, in the examples Texas Roofer gave us, not going to Mass or Confession, going to Alternative Churches, etc., I think a good portion of those people are just poorly taught and don’t really know what they are doing sooo the sin isn’t mortal if they don’t really understand what they are doing.

The question is do they want to understand?

 

[Kathrin]

Our mind is such a complicated thing… I think we’re even able to trick ourselves into thinking we’re not sinning, just so that we can later tell ourselves we ddn’t know we were sinning… When you’re close to sin (that is, during temptation), a lot of back and forth between two parts of your mind is going on (or, you could say, between you listening to God and you listening to the devil). Remembering that you can confess your sin probably steers you TOWARD the sin rather than from it… (hm, that almost sounds as if confession as such could be harmful? But that’s not what I meant to say. It really depends on how we VIEW confession.)

For example. If I told myself “oh, I can have sex before marriage because I am just going to confess it later…” That would be obvious.
But it is more likely to go something like this: “Oh, I can have sex before marriage, because I can always go to confession… no, wait, if I do this I am not taking the sacrament of confession seriously, that’s not the pioint of it… so I better not have sex before marriage… well but what if I just kind of see what happens, I’ll tell myself I won’t have sex and then maybe if it happens anyway I didn’t INTEND to do it… and IF it happens I can still go to confession…”

Kathrin

 

[jmcrae]

Kathrin;

Yes, and then we are in a situation where we did not avoid the situation that could cause us to sin, which is, itself, a kind of sin.

For example, if one allows oneself to be alone with an attractive member of the opposite sex, with the lights turned down and the romantic music playing, just to “see what happens” then one is actually setting oneself up to fail - in other words, not doing everything possible to avoid temptation.

 

[Peccata]

Kathrin;

Yes, and then we are in a situation where we did not avoid the situation that could cause us to sin, which is, itself, a kind of sin.

For example, if one allows oneself to be alone with an attractive member of the opposite sex, with the lights turned down and the romantic music playing, just to “see what happens” then one is actually setting oneself up to fail - in other words, not doing everything possible to avoid temptation.

I really like what you said about setting yourself up to fail. I guess that’s the part about “avoiding the near occasion of sin”. Luckily I am old enough to not have to worry about the sins against chastity, but I have a friend that I love to hang out with… Sometimes I end up drinking too much when we go out. It’s so easy to say, oh well…no big deal…I can handle it. But then there it is "setting myself up to fail!

Thanks jmcrae tor reminding me. After all I promise to avoid these near occasions every time I go to confession.