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Veronica1952
Guest
Oh…and there is NOTHING wrong with offering your two daughters over to be held hostage and raped??
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fix
Guest
Thus, in*** Genesis 19:1-11, the deterioration due to sin continues in the story of the men of Sodom. There can be no doubt of the moral judgement made there against homosexual relations.
*** CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS
*** CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS
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The_Angelus
Guest
Trying to keep this as clean as possible…
When God created man and woman and told them to be fruitful and multiply, He designed them so that fruitfulness would occur from one specific type of intercourse. All other types do not produce life and were not what God designed.
Also, I am inclined to doubt that God divided parts of the act of intercourse into such things as foreplay, ejaculation, et cetera. I think he just wanted Adam and Eve to fill the earth and subdue it, not to have kinky fun in the process. Fun, maybe; sex is a pleasurable experience according to all sources. Just not that kind of fun! The sort that results from deviant activities.
Earlier points about the rear end not being exactly a pleasure center were right on. Anyone who has ever sat on a thumbtack can tell you that. Apologies for the graphic description, but since WHEN is it natural or acceptable to have a hard object inserted into one’s anus? Even without consummation of intercourse, it’s wrong.
God intended sex for ONE purpose and ONE method; the sin of the men of Sodom was to deviate from it.
When God created man and woman and told them to be fruitful and multiply, He designed them so that fruitfulness would occur from one specific type of intercourse. All other types do not produce life and were not what God designed.
Also, I am inclined to doubt that God divided parts of the act of intercourse into such things as foreplay, ejaculation, et cetera. I think he just wanted Adam and Eve to fill the earth and subdue it, not to have kinky fun in the process. Fun, maybe; sex is a pleasurable experience according to all sources. Just not that kind of fun! The sort that results from deviant activities.
Earlier points about the rear end not being exactly a pleasure center were right on. Anyone who has ever sat on a thumbtack can tell you that. Apologies for the graphic description, but since WHEN is it natural or acceptable to have a hard object inserted into one’s anus? Even without consummation of intercourse, it’s wrong.
God intended sex for ONE purpose and ONE method; the sin of the men of Sodom was to deviate from it.
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elizabeth4truth
Guest
Dear Angelus,
I agree with you. I believe Original Sin could have been a sexual act that distorted God’s intention of the beautiful sexual union between man and woman. It means man and woman used each other for “kinky sex”, as you described. It points to how homosexual; “kinky sex acts” might have begun. It is the breaking of the Command that Jesus gave, “to love your neighbor as yourself” because one cannot truly love ones neighbor if he or she is using him/her for selfish pleasure.
When God gave “dominion” over the earth to mankind, it wasn’t meant as “domination” over each other but, that’s what happened. My argument is that the desire to “dominate” both male and female was part of the Original Sin that separated mankind from God and man from woman.
When we look at the fall of man, we often look only at the cut made between God and mankind. There is also a cut made between man and woman. I believe it possible, the “cut” was because of a “kinky sex act” and that homosexual sex acts are a result of man and woman’s desire to pervert God’s gift of the knowledge of good, with the knowledge of evil. It makes sense why they would feel shame upon discovering they were naked. It also explains how it was that Eve ate first and why Adam blamed God for giving him Eve, because he was tempted toward lust. It lends explanation to why Eve was given such harsh punishment; “yet your urge will be for your husband and he will be your master.” because she might have intentionally, brought Adam to climax outside her necessary part for the creation of life.
Healthy, fun sexual intimacy is a wonderful gift from God, in marriage. It is how men and women intimate the giving of themselves to each other. As a woman, I’m aware how important foreplay is. Guess the difference is knowing (good/evil) if our desire is to give and receive or just take and claim entitlement.
Peace to you,
Elizabeth
I agree with you. I believe Original Sin could have been a sexual act that distorted God’s intention of the beautiful sexual union between man and woman. It means man and woman used each other for “kinky sex”, as you described. It points to how homosexual; “kinky sex acts” might have begun. It is the breaking of the Command that Jesus gave, “to love your neighbor as yourself” because one cannot truly love ones neighbor if he or she is using him/her for selfish pleasure.
When God gave “dominion” over the earth to mankind, it wasn’t meant as “domination” over each other but, that’s what happened. My argument is that the desire to “dominate” both male and female was part of the Original Sin that separated mankind from God and man from woman.
When we look at the fall of man, we often look only at the cut made between God and mankind. There is also a cut made between man and woman. I believe it possible, the “cut” was because of a “kinky sex act” and that homosexual sex acts are a result of man and woman’s desire to pervert God’s gift of the knowledge of good, with the knowledge of evil. It makes sense why they would feel shame upon discovering they were naked. It also explains how it was that Eve ate first and why Adam blamed God for giving him Eve, because he was tempted toward lust. It lends explanation to why Eve was given such harsh punishment; “yet your urge will be for your husband and he will be your master.” because she might have intentionally, brought Adam to climax outside her necessary part for the creation of life.
Healthy, fun sexual intimacy is a wonderful gift from God, in marriage. It is how men and women intimate the giving of themselves to each other. As a woman, I’m aware how important foreplay is. Guess the difference is knowing (good/evil) if our desire is to give and receive or just take and claim entitlement.
Peace to you,
Elizabeth
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Island_Oak
Guest
So we’re OK with using “fruit” in the figurative and allegorical sense when it serves our purposes for condemning homosexuality…but we’re gonna hold tight to the “facts” of Adam & Eve rolling around naked and innocent as the only 2 humans on earth in a Garden of Eden, the talking snake, the tree in the middle… !!!
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buffalo
Guest
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elizabeth4truth
Guest
buffalo said:
Yes Buffalo,
All you wrote supports the theory that the first act could have been one of sexual perversion, I agree completely. Thank you for writing the Catechism here that suggests this to be possibly true.
Peace,
Elizabeth
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buffalo
Guest
Uh, No!!! It clearly states that our first parents wanted to be like God. Sexual perversion came later.
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elizabeth4truth
Guest
Island Oak:
Not certain I get your point. Do you think homosexual acts are okay or do you agree they are against God’s original intention for human sexuality? The point I’m trying to make is that homosexual acts began with hetrosexuals.
God made man incomplete without woman. Then He told them to be fruitful and multiply. They needed to be sexual to do that but, if Adam’s seed didn’t hit the target, ie the act became perverted, they could not be fruitful, and the human race would “surely die.”
Peace,
Elizabeth
Dear Island Oak,So we’re OK with using “fruit” in the figurative and allegorical sense when it serves our purposes for condemning homosexuality…but we’re gonna hold tight to the “facts” of Adam & Eve rolling around naked and innocent as the only 2 humans on earth in a Garden of Eden, the talking snake, the tree in the middle… !!!
Not certain I get your point. Do you think homosexual acts are okay or do you agree they are against God’s original intention for human sexuality? The point I’m trying to make is that homosexual acts began with hetrosexuals.
God made man incomplete without woman. Then He told them to be fruitful and multiply. They needed to be sexual to do that but, if Adam’s seed didn’t hit the target, ie the act became perverted, they could not be fruitful, and the human race would “surely die.”
Peace,
Elizabeth
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elizabeth4truth
Guest
Hmmm Buffalo,
When I read this and apply the theory that the “act” Adam and Eve committed, was sexual in nature, rather than eating an apple, let’s say, it all makes perfect sense. Everything falls right into place from the first homosexual act, in self preferrence to the desire of both sexes to dominate each other. Thanks for bringing this up. I doubt then, that we will agree but appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Peace,
Elizabeth
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Island_Oak
Guest
Nor I yours…batter up?!
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buffalo
Guest
How do you get there from here?
In that sin man *preferred *himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279
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elizabeth4truth
Guest
Buffalo,
How do you think our first parents wanted to be like God? God is supreme over His subjects, man and woman. How could Adam or Eve be a god, if they didn’t have a subject, like themselves, to rule? Did Adam want to rule Eve; did Eve want to rule Adam; thus making them like gods?
Was the seduction of the snake, the separation of the two sexes? Did he divide them by encouraging them they could be like God by dominating each other? Don’t we suffer from this today? Isn’t it why we have disagreements and wars? I think it is possible.
Peace,
Elizabeth
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buffalo
Guest
They wanted to be omniscient and omnipotent - not homosexual.
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elizabeth4truth
Guest
I get there in the very wording itself.
Man preferred himself to God. He/she wanted to put themself first, before God and each other. Each wanted to be “top dog” so to speak.
What were the requirements of man’s “creaturely status”? Created in the Divine Image, male and femal, they were told to be fruitful and multiply (ie having vaginal sex with/out perversion, eating of the tree). They were given dominion over all the earth, but not over each other.
But, when they fell, Adam was given dominion over Eve? Why? “yet your urge will be for your husband and he will be your master.” Something in their Original Sin points directly to man taking, or being given, dominion over woman. Man committed a selfish act. He did not love God, or his wife, as The Lord asked and as Christ laters tells men they must do, Ephesians 5:21-34 becuase he used her to feel his power over her.
On the other hand Eve was equally to blame for the fall. She possibly saw her God given ability to attract her mate and she used that to try and gain control over him, making herself like a god because of the power she felt at her ability to cause Adam’s seed to come forth.
I think it’s possible.
Peace,
Elizabeth
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elizabeth4truth
Guest
Yes Buffalo they did want to be all knowing, all seeing and all powerful. But, how could they do that given their limitations? How could they express that intention to be equal to God? God had given them dominion over all the earth but not dominion over each other. They needed someone like themself, to be their subject, in order to be like a god. They already had knowledge of good. What they learned from performing that first sin was the knowledge of what was evil. They felt shame that they were naked. Is it possible they knew they were naked because they had performed a perverse sexual act, with the intention of being god over each other?
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elizabeth4truth
Guest
Island Oak:
The “target” being the “egg” so that life could perpetuate, is that what you mean?
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bado20
Guest
All your life?! how old are you?? hehe
I think some times the Eden Garden is figure for the human body.
It makes sense to tree, the middle of the garden, the snake and the rivers in the garden!
The text says there is a big river that divides in four other rivers to water the garden. It looks like the heart and the aorta that at the heart outlet divides in four main arteries to “water” the several parts of the body. Maybe the names of the rivers mean something. I will investigate it.
I am now asking myself: If the knowledge tree is a bady part, what part of the body would be the life tree?
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buffalo
Guest
No. They were told they could be like God if they ate of the fruit. They already had dominion over the creatures of the earth. God does not need someone to have dominion over. Their knowledge of God and his power made them consider eating the fruit. They became aware they were naked only after they ate the fruit. They now felt shame in front of God because they disobeyed Him.
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The_Angelus
Guest
Um, Elizabeth, I think you missed my point.
I don’t think the original sin was homosexuality. I think the original sin was when Adam and Eve desired to put themselves above God and to eat of the fruit he had told them not to. Prior to the fruit-eating, don’t forget, Adam and Eve were the only humans on earth. There was no one AROUND for Adam to be homosexual with, if you get my drift. Heterosexuality was the only option.
Genesis clearly states that the Fall occurred when Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit. They lost their original state of grace and became fallible, fallen human beings. They felt shame at being naked, and shameful at the desires it aroused in them. Maybe you mean this sexual awareness was the sin, but no. It was a consequence of the original sin.
I think we’re all misunderstanding everyone here… :whacky:
I don’t think the original sin was homosexuality. I think the original sin was when Adam and Eve desired to put themselves above God and to eat of the fruit he had told them not to. Prior to the fruit-eating, don’t forget, Adam and Eve were the only humans on earth. There was no one AROUND for Adam to be homosexual with, if you get my drift. Heterosexuality was the only option.
Genesis clearly states that the Fall occurred when Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit. They lost their original state of grace and became fallible, fallen human beings. They felt shame at being naked, and shameful at the desires it aroused in them. Maybe you mean this sexual awareness was the sin, but no. It was a consequence of the original sin.
I think we’re all misunderstanding everyone here… :whacky:
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