sin or scruples

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Hi there.

I know that wishing to carry out a mortal sin is a mortal sin in itself
Say you had a thought that you’d like to do something but you knew you wouldn’t because it is a mortal sin.

Could this be sinful in itself?
 
backtocatholic said:
Hi there.

I know that wishing to carry out a mortal sin is a mortal sin in itself
Say you had a thought that you’d like to do something but you knew you wouldn’t because it is a mortal sin.

Could this be sinful in itself?
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Scruple. A thought only.

Venial sin. Entertaining that thought in one’s mind and deriving pleasure from as it becomes a mental act.

Mortal sin. Physically acting out the thought - in reality.

My reasoning anyway. Don’t take my word for it.
 
no. that’s called temptation and is not a sin. acting on it would be a sin. it is our choices and decisions that make all the difference. and don’t linger on the thought but banish it. lingering would be a near occasion of sin.
 
bisco said:
no. that’s called temptation and is not a sin. acting on it would be a sin. it is our choices and decisions that make all the difference. and don’t linger on the thought but banish it. lingering would be a near occasion of sin.
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^ This. ^ And if you have scruples or OCD, the thought might be intrusive, but still if there’s not willing consent, it remains a temptation and a mental “glitch” only. One test helps me - I ask myself, do I wish the stupid thought would just leave me alone? That’s an intrusive, unwanted thought, then. Even if I fear I consented to it or might consent - but don’t want to consent - and feel all twisted up inside - that’s a pretty good indicator that it’s a scruple and an unwanted thought.
 
backtocatholic said:
Hi there.

I know that wishing to carry out a mortal sin is a mortal sin in itself
Say you had a thought that you’d like to do something but you knew you wouldn’t because it is a mortal sin.

Could this be sinful in itself?
Click to expand...
I thought I read somewhere that if you decide to commit a mortal sin in your mind, that like you are saying, it’s a mortal sin that you committed with your thoughts.
Jesus showed us it’s possible to commit mortal sins in our thoughts, ‘He who hates his brother is liable for the judgement of hell.’ ‘he who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart .’ (Even deliberate impure imaginings like this are mortal sin, it’s adultery in the heart).

I myself would confess it first to be certain. And not ever think of liking to commit a mortal sin.
 
backtocatholic said:
Hi there.

I know that wishing to carry out a mortal sin is a mortal sin in itself
Say you had a thought that you’d like to do something but you knew you wouldn’t because it is a mortal sin.

Could this be sinful in itself?
Click to expand...
This is incorrect. Wishing to sin is not a sin. To sin is a verb, you have to actually DO it.
 
If thinking about something that would be a sin, is a sin,
Then I have got no chance
 
You may be referencing something like Matthew 5:27-28. Pope Saint JP2 has an excellent discussion of this in Theology of the Body.

People who say that sin is simply what we do are wrong. Sin is part of who we are. Christ wants to make us better people. Without sin.

Let’s examine adultery, per JP2’s analysis, with an eye to sin and your question.

You see a woman /man (another’s spouse?) and you know, “Golly, I would really like to ogle that person, undress them with my eyes, imagine them doing sexual acts with me - maybe even fantasize about intercourse with them!” And then you choose not to do that. You choose not to engage in that sort of thought process. This doesn’t mean you can’t admire the way they look/act/move/make you feel! But you do so in a way that respects them as a person, rather than reducing them to an object for your perverse enjoyment.

That’s not a sin. You’ve recognized your sinful nature, and you’ve overcome it. (For the record, this is really difficult to do.)

Christ doesn’t want us to objectify other people. If you look at another person as a sex object, to fulfill (even mentally / in fantasy) your concupiscent urges, then you look at them in a way that diminishes them as a person made in the image of God. That’s a sin, even if you don’t act physically on any of your urges.

So yes, wishing or thinking something can be a sin. Recognizing your capacity to wish or think something sinful - and striving to avoid it - is definitely not sinful.

Caveat: I am not a priest. You know what? Just go tell your priest about all of this. Do whatever he tells you to do. Believe him. Problem solved!
 
Thanks for your feedback particularly in relation to intrusive thoughts. I’ve been suffering from these for months. One problem I have is in distinguishing between intrusive thoughts and thoughts that I think myself. Sometimes certain trigger words cause me to think bad thoughts. Over a few seconds (less than 5 seconds) I consciously allow the thought to develop in my mind and finally I stop the thought. I do not take any enjoyment from these thoughts. I know I am thinking them myself voluntarily but it all happens really quickly. I do not dwell on them for more than a few seconds. Has anyone else experienced this. Is this partial or full consent?
 
A good rule of thumb in my experience. If you have to ask if it’s sinful or scrupulous it’s scrupulous. 😉
 
unless you don’t have a good handle on what sin is, especially the difference between mortal and venial. that’s why it’s best to bring it to confession until your comfortable in your knowledge.
 
Catholic1954 said:
This is incorrect. Wishing to sin is not a sin. To sin is a verb, you have to actually DO it.
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Setting aside the OP question - questions of scruples are best handled by a *regular confessor *(such is very important for those with scruples) - - one is not to “wish to sin” that can yes be sinful. Wishing to sin can yes be a sin. If I decided - I wish I could murder so and so and get away with it - that can yes be sinful.

But that is different than say some involuntary thought or some temptation or some scruple or some intrusive thought…

(remember for mortal sin there needs to be not only the grave matter but full knowledge and deliberate (complete) consent …all sorts of thoughts can “happen to one” and there be on sin…)
 
Catholic1954 said:
This is incorrect. Wishing to sin is not a sin. To sin is a verb, you have to actually DO it.
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Setting aside the other persons question (best handled by a regular confessor) - if I really wish to murder someone --with knowledge and consent - that is yes a sin. Etc.
That though is not the same thing as a temptation or a scruple or an unconsented to thought or an intrusive thought…those are very different than actually wishing to sin. Actually wanting to sin. With knowledge and consent.
 
yes, and thoughts and desires much less benign than that. again though, you need to be able to differentiate mortal from venial.
 
One thing that puzzles me is what consent really is.

Is it allowing the thought to remain in your mind without purposefully changing your thoughts or is it enjoyment or agreement with the thought.

I get continual intrusive thoughts (some of which I think myself), and seem to spend the day trying to refocus my thoughts. The problem with this is that it actually makes intrusive thoughts worse as the more you try to get rid of them the worse they get.

I’ve been told that the only way to get rid of the thoughts for good is to actually let them happen and then your mind is no longer afraid of them. However, this contradicts catholic teaching.
 
I see an attractive woman. I notice and appreciate her beauty. A natural desire to (in)-appropriate her beauty for my own pleasure arises in me. No sin yet. Nature has designed us for a certain amount of this.

While knowing that a desire to (in)-appropriate her is arising in me, I make a choice to give custody of my eyes to lust. Sinful. I entertain thoughts. Sinful.
Even though no “action” has taken place, I have truly acted on lust.
I enjoy her beauty in a way that is dis-ordered. I knew, I chose, I acted. Is it mortal? No, the matter in this case is not grave. If it leads me to use pornography, different story.

There is a difference between feelings and urges, and making a decision to entertain and nurture them.
 
backtocatholic said:
One thing that puzzles me is what consent really is.

Is it allowing the thought to remain in your mind without purposefully changing your thoughts or is it enjoyment or agreement with the thought.

I get continual intrusive thoughts (some of which I think myself), and seem to spend the day trying to refocus my thoughts. The problem with this is that it actually makes intrusive thoughts worse as the more you try to get rid of them the worse they get.

I’ve been told that the only way to get rid of the thoughts for good is to actually let them happen and then your mind is no longer afraid of them. However, this contradicts catholic teaching.
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I don’t think that is quite the proper way to understand it. Random thoughts, what the fathers call logismoi, can’t be prevented. They come at you completely unbidden. And as you say trying to fight against them only makes it worse. It is also true that you have no culpability for the logismoi itself. But thoughts are the starting point for all sin. Here is how Fr Maximos describes the process.
  • Assault - the logismoi first attacks a person’s mind
  • Interaction - a person opens up a dialogue with the logismoi
  • Consent - a person consents to do what the logismoi urges him to do
  • Defeat - a person becomes hostage to the logismoi and finds it more difficult to resist
  • Passion or Obsession - the logismoi becomes an entrenched reality within the nous of a person
The way he suggests dealing with these thoughts is to simply shrug them off without fighting and especially without beating yourself up for having the thought. You have to do that no matter how abhorrent the thought may be. Because when you struggle against the thought or ridicule yourself for even having it you are moving to the second step of interacting with it. Just say “Lord have mercy” and let it fall off of you.
 
clem456 said:
I see an attractive woman. I notice and appreciate her beauty. A natural desire to (in)-appropriate her beauty for my own pleasure arises in me. No sin yet. Nature has designed us for a certain amount of this.

While knowing that a desire to (in)-appropriate her is arising in me, I make a choice to give custody of my eyes to lust. Sinful. I entertain thoughts. Sinful.
Even though no “action” has taken place, I have truly acted on lust.
I enjoy her beauty in a way that is dis-ordered. I knew, I chose, I acted. Is it mortal? No, the matter in this case is not grave. If it leads me to use pornography, different story.

There is a difference between feelings and urges, and making a decision to entertain and nurture them.
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at what point, in your scenario, does it become ‘adultery in your heart’ and therefore, mortal?
 
bisco said:
at what point, in your scenario, does it become ‘adultery in your heart’ and therefore, mortal?
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Don’t you have an easy question?

When does God’s life of grace in me begin to die…

I really don’t have a pat answer for that. If I am on the street the opportunity to continue in lust is difficult because I am probably walking or driving.
Images on the computer present a much more difficult problem, because they are handy.
Knowledge ( I know the difference)
Consent (I make a choice)
Grave matter ( to look at pornographic images)
 
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