"Sin"/"Sins" during Holy Mass

[jmjconder]

During the Holy Mass there are two occasions that I will hear people around me say either “sin” or “sins” at the same time.

One is in the Gloria where the Roman Missal I use has the word “sin of the world” yet I hear many people say sins.

The second time is at the Lamb of God where the word is “sins” yet many people say the word “sin.” Again the Roman Missal says; “Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us.”

Now I know in the scheme of Liturgical issues this may seem trite. However I believe that there is a world of difference between these two words. I have always thought “sin of the world” referred to original sin which needs salvation and “sins of the world” refers to our ongoing weaknesses which definitely need mercy.

Please help me sort this out.

 

[MusicMan]

Does not the Cross and Resurrection of the Blessed Lamb of God wash away both the Original Sin of Adam and the sins we commit?

 

[jmjconder]

Does not the Cross and Resurrection of the Blessed Lamb of God wash away both the Original Sin of Adam and the sins we commit?

I do not disagree with your statement. However in the Gloria we give praise for our salvation and in the Lamb of God we are asking for mercy…both were accomplished by Jesus Christ…however is it not another failure of all our Mass catechesis not to distinguish between the two? Granted salvation is full of mercy - however I feel the central prayer is missed when the faithful do not understand the difference.

Does anyone agree with me?

 

[Anthony_V]

In directly translated Latin, the actual word is “sin”. However, in order to keep “sin” from being seen as this mystical cosmological curse that has been lifted, the “s” was added to the end during the translation to make the proclamation more understandable and give a general implication of personal sin being individually accountable.
Now, an argument could be made stating that “sins” is just as correct in its over syntax as “sin”, but the general idea is that “who takes away the sin of the world” is not a bumper sticker item. It takes some prior theological knowledge that the average Catholic does not have.

 

[MarkThompson]

In the Gloria, the present English text does actually say “sin.” The Latin word is peccata, plural, and this is being corrected in the upcoming new translation to “sins.”

Elsewhere, such as “Behold the Lamb of God,” the Latin is again plural (peccata) but the English has it right already (“sins”). It is probably this discrepancy between the Gloria and other places in the Mass that causes people to say the wrong thing sometimes. I don’t know of any place in the true (Latin or corrected English) text of the Mass where “sin of the world,” singular, appears, so hopefully this will eventually die out.

 

[Waiting]

I believe that “sin” can be used either singularly to mean one particular sin, or collectively to mean all sins.

 

[curlycool89]

In the Gloria, the present English text does actually say “sin.” The Latin word is peccata, plural, and this is being corrected in the upcoming new translation to “sins.”

Elsewhere, such as “Behold the Lamb of God,” the Latin is again plural (peccata) but the English has it right already (“sins”). It is probably this discrepancy between the Gloria and other places in the Mass that causes people to say the wrong thing sometimes. I don’t know of any place in the true (Latin or corrected English) text of the Mass where “sin of the world,” singular, appears, so hopefully this will eventually die out.

I get these confused all the time, and that explains it. 1 is “sin” and the other is “sins”. Good to know.

 

[valentino]

I think you’re right.

 

[Servulus]

The correct translation is “sins”. As with a number of other things that happened with the introduction of the Mass in English, the folks who originally changed the translations did so on the basis of their acceptance of certain theological/philosophical notions of the time. As some liturgists and priests have put it, the idea was to emphasize “the sin of the world” (that is, the sinfulness of fallen human nature) as opposed to “the sins of the world” (that is, the innumerable individual offenses that have been, are, and will be committed). It is these latter that the Lamb of God took away, suffering for each of them as He redeemed us as unique individuals He knew by name, not as some aggregate “sinful humanity”. The new translation of the Mass returns us to “sins” in both prayers.

 

[MarkThompson]

As some liturgists and priests have put it, the idea was to emphasize “the sin of the world” (that is, the sinfulness of fallen human nature) as opposed to “the sins of the world” (that is, the innumerable individual offenses that have been, are, and will be committed). It is these latter that the Lamb of God took away, suffering for each of them as He redeemed us as unique individuals He knew by name, not as some aggregate “sinful humanity”. The new translation of the Mass returns us to “sins” in both prayers.

Catholic theology embraces both concepts. The Exsultet comes to mind immediately as a text replete with sentiments of the second kind.

 

[Pug]

Perhaps the confusion is from people reading the bible. In John 1:29, John the Baptist says “qui tollit peccatum mundi”, which is “sin” not “sins”. The mass uses words similar enough that one thinks it is quoting him, but it isn’t, not exactly.

Also, as someone already mentioned, the English Gloria has the word right now as “sin”. Even once this changes (I assume it will), the issue with the discrepancy with the bible will remain, so the problem of confusing the words might remain.

 

[MusicMan]

I wouldn’t get too gung-ho excited over what the Latin Bible says. I’d go back to the Greek, put it into appropriate context, and go from there.

 

[MarkThompson]

I wouldn’t get too gung-ho excited over what the Latin Bible says. I’d go back to the Greek, put it into appropriate context, and go from there.

The Greek word in John 1:29 is ἁμαρτίαν, singular.

 

[Pug]

I wouldn’t get too gung-ho excited over what the Latin Bible says. I’d go back to the Greek, put it into appropriate context, and go from there.

I’m not. I figured since the context was the mass, and since that is from the Latin, I’d bother to provide the Latin for that bible verse, since some might prefer I do that so it all matched.

It is singular in the Greek in John 1:29. hamartian. The context in scripture is John 1, of course.

In case it is not clear, I don’t care how the Church chooses to match or not match the bible. I expect her to use scripture with some fluidity. I am pointing out that it is a potential source of people using the wrong words at mass, and it isn’t going to go away.

 

[GKCT]

jmj

You are correct. We use the word sin for original sin; and sins for our own weaknesses and sins current in our life.

I also hear people saying them wrong.

 

[jmjconder]

---

jmj

You are correct. We use the word sin for original sin; and sins for our own weaknesses and sins current in our life.

I also hear people saying them wrong.

**Thank you for understanding my point.

Some of the previous posts think there is no difference in “sin” or “sins.” I do not agree - and that is why I find this an interesting discussion.

There is a clear theological difference between the two and the fact that sin(s) in general has been so down played in our world does not help.

I am stunned that people think these two words are so interchangeable…they may be related however they are not identical.**

 

[Pug]

Now I know in the scheme of Liturgical issues this may seem trite. However I believe that there is a world of difference between these two words. I have always thought “sin of the world” referred to original sin which needs salvation and “sins of the world” refers to our ongoing weaknesses which definitely need mercy.

Please help me sort this out.

Perhaps this snip from the CCC is will seem helpful to you:
**408 **The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”…

 

[jmjconder]

Perhaps this snip from the CCC is will seem helpful to you:
**408 **The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”…

**So if there had never been original sin there would not be sins. I see this as supporting my concern regarding the misuse of these two words in the Liturgy.

We give Glory for salvation from sin - we ask mercy for our continued sins “Lamb of God.”**

 

[Pug]

**So if there had never been original sin there would not be sins. **

I think it is possible to sin even if one does not have original sin, since Adam and the Devil managed to do just that.

I see this as supporting my concern regarding the misuse of these two words in the Liturgy.

I don’t know what the CCC itself means (in numerous passages I wonder what it really has in mind), but to me it sounds like personal sins or the consequences thereof are included in the term “sin of the world”.

**

We give Glory for salvation from sin - we ask mercy for our continued sins “Lamb of God.”

**
I praise and give thanks to God for his mercy endures forever. For me, His mercy is a big part of why we glorify God. I don’t so strongly separate it as do you.

 

[DaveBj]

I’m just trying to picture God falling off His throne and screaming, “It’s not ‘sin,’ it’s ‘sins!’ Get it right.” The image just won’t come.

It’s singular in the Gospel. It’s plural in the wording of the Mass. Whichever word floats to the top of your mind, use it and move on.