Sin to be rich? Who is rich?

[upbeatjonm]

This past week, in one of the daily Mass readings, St. James said “Come now, you rich, weep and wail over your impending misery…you have stored up treasure for the last days”. He does mention that these rich have withheld wages from the workers, and murdered the righteous one, so maybe it is not the rich per se, but those who are unjust.

My question is this; is it a sin to store up treasures for the last days? Such as saving for retirement?

Another question: in various places in the Bible, there are warnings to the rich, who have already received their reward, and are basically doomed. Those who have enough to eat (woe to you who are filled now, you will be hungry). Who are these rich? How are we as Catholics supposed to live our lives without falling into the trap of being the rich that are threatened with punishment?

 

[jmcrae]

It’s not a sin to be rich; nor is it a sin to save for retirement, unless in some way it is more virtuous to die of starvation and/or exposure than in some other way.

It is, however, a sin to be greedy, and I think perhaps in some way the message has been mistranslated, because I don’t think he is speaking to rich people, per se, but rather, to greedy people - people whose entire lives revolve around their money.

 

[upbeatjonm]

It’s not a sin to be rich; nor is it a sin to save for retirement, unless in some way it is more virtuous to die of starvation and/or exposure than in some other way.

It is, however, a sin to be greedy, and I think perhaps in some way the message has been mistranslated, because I don’t think he is speaking to rich people, per se, but rather, to greedy people - people whose entire lives revolve around their money.

Thanks, that makes sense. The bible verses are always so frightening, especially when it contrasts those who are hungry now, vs. those who have their fill. After all, how many of us miss a meal? I also don’t think it unwise to save for retirement, especially as long as we keep God first.

 

[vern_humphrey]

It is no sin to be rich, or well-to-do. It is a sin to neglect our fellow man and withhold charity – that is the sin Dives committed against Lazarus.

And I, crusty old curmudgeon that I am, think it is a sin not to use your God-given abilities to bear your share of the load.

 

[JRKH]

This past week, in one of the daily Mass readings, St. James said “Come now, you rich, weep and wail over your impending misery…you have stored up treasure for the last days”. He does mention that these rich have withheld wages from the workers, and murdered the righteous one, so maybe it is not the rich per se, but those who are unjust.

My question is this; is it a sin to store up treasures for the last days? Such as saving for retirement?

Another question: in various places in the Bible, there are warnings to the rich, who have already received their reward, and are basically doomed. Those who have enough to eat (woe to you who are filled now, you will be hungry). Who are these rich? How are we as Catholics supposed to live our lives without falling into the trap of being the rich that are threatened with punishment?

Tough Question.
The issue really relates, not to the state of your bank account but rather to your state of mind. If I may be permitted an analogy, think of it a bit like a sacrament in reverse.

Where a sacrament is an outward sign of an inner change, so the way we handle our money can be an indicator of how we view our faith.

Christ told us we should not worry about tomorrow, but of course we have obligations to our families and to our Church and community.
He told us that it would be difficult for the rich to get into heaven, but he is really talking people who are attached to the money instead of the people and community.

I know this is not the clearest answer, but I hope it helps.

Peace
James

 

[upbeatjonm]

Tough Question.
The issue really relates, not to the state of your bank account but rather to your state of mind. If I may be permitted an analogy, think of it a bit like a sacrament in reverse.

Where a sacrament is an outward sign of an inner change, so the way we handle our money can be an indicator of how we view our faith.

Christ told us we should not worry about tomorrow, but of course we have obligations to our families and to our Church and community.
He told us that it would be difficult for the rich to get into heaven, but he is really talking people who are attached to the money instead of the people and community.

I know this is not the clearest answer, but I hope it helps.

Peace
James

I agree. My goal for retirement is to have enough to maintain a decent lifestyle, but not extravegent. Don’t want to be a burdon. That seems to be a wise approach. I don’t see this as riches, or treasure. I still will have God as the center. I hope to make it as simple to manage as possible, so that I am not “managing my money” with too much time and effort, thus becoming a slave to the money.

 

[Newbie2]

I agree. My goal for retirement is to have enough to maintain a decent lifestyle, but not extravegent. Don’t want to be a burdon. That seems to be a wise approach. I don’t see this as riches, or treasure. I still will have God as the center. I hope to make it as simple to manage as possible, so that I am not “managing my money” with too much time and effort, thus becoming a slave to the money.

Well, even if you or anyone else were to “manage their money” with a lot of time and effort, that isn’t necessarily sinful. As has been said, the key idea is one’s attitude toward money.

Managing one’s money with the idea of becoming rich as the goal is far different than managing one’s money with the idea of making the best use of it for oneself, one’s family and the welfare of others.

This is a wee bit off track, but I get a laugh out of the media fawning over Oprah or some mega-rich sports figure or movie star giving a million dollars to some charity. Big deal. When one makes tens of millions of dollars a year and has way more money than they’ll ever spend in the bank, a million bux is chump change.

Yes, it benefits charities and they’re grateful for it. But this is more the kind of wealth-acquisition that is to the point of St. James.

 

[JRKH]

I agree. My goal for retirement is to have enough to maintain a decent lifestyle, but not extravegent. Don’t want to be a burdon. That seems to be a wise approach. I don’t see this as riches, or treasure. I still will have God as the center. I hope to make it as simple to manage as possible, so that I am not “managing my money” with too much time and effort, thus becoming a slave to the money.

As newbie reiterated it just all depends on the attitude of the person.

I think of all the people today who “just cannot get by on one salary” and then remember my parents raising 5 kids just on dad’s factory work pay.

Did we vacation every year? No.
Did we have “name brand clothes”? Heck no.
Did we get every new gadget-gizmo for Christmas? Nope.

Did we get raised with good morals? Yes Sir
Did we learn to take care of things? You betcha
Did we get raised in Love and Faith? Absolutely

Did God take care of us? OH YEA

I remember my mom telling me (years later of course) how they pledged $5000 dollars to the Church Building program (in about 1961) even though dad was out of work at the time. They placed it in God’s hands and He came through.

My parents have not wanted for anything since they retired. We kids are close and do whatever we can for them. That is true treasure. When dad was dying from alzheimers, mom wanted to keep him at home. We did everything we could to help make that happen. (Thank God for Good family and Hospice.)

Sorry if this seems a bit off topic, but your comment about wanting enough for a “decent” lifestyle got me to thinking about what that means to different people. I’m not judging anyone you understand, I’m just thinkin’.

Like the people who claim to need two salaries just to survive but then “need” a big TV, or “need” a vacation cruise, or “need” a sunroof in their new car. They may choose these things and have a great desire for them, but they definately do not NEED them. Nor do their kids “need” the latest gizmo. This is what we always need to keep in mind when we are doing financial planning. What are truely “needs” and what are actually desires.
I repeat that I am not judging anyone. I am just as “guilty” as the next one when it comes to “coveting” (maybe even more so).

Peace
James

 

[strngrnrth]

How spoiled I’ve become! Even though I actually qualify for assistance and do at times worry about getting protein, I have so much more than I had most of my youth. My own (tiny, noisy, smelly, hot-or-cold, but all mine) place to live. A thermostat, laptop computer (hardly ever a photo and forget a video, but I don’t need it for that) and an Internet connection as well as a fridge that (so far) doesn’t leak inside or out. A bus pass in a city where I can go most places by bus without having to walk a mile if I choose not to (assuming it’s daytime or early eve. and i don’t miss my bus). Several changes of clothes, casual and moderately formal, most reasonably comfortable adna f ew items kind of in style as far as I know. But I complain because I live in a time and place where going out to eat is the norm, where central heating and A/C are the standard for the middle classes, and where most people have cars. Sometimes I catch myself and laugh at myself.
My point is that maybe I’m falling into the rich mentality, never satisfied to have enough but rather comparing my life with a perfect life. Maybe that’s what it means to be too rich; forgetting we might have had nothing at all, and that no one owes us a life without effort or discomfort.

 

[JRKH]

How spoiled I’ve become! Even though I actually qualify for assistance and do at times worry about getting protein, I have so much more than I had most of my youth. My own (tiny, noisy, smelly, hot-or-cold, but all mine) place to live. A thermostat, laptop computer (hardly ever a photo and forget a video, but I don’t need it for that) and an Internet connection as well as a fridge that (so far) doesn’t leak inside or out. A bus pass in a city where I can go most places by bus without having to walk a mile if I choose not to (assuming it’s daytime or early eve. and i don’t miss my bus). Several changes of clothes, casual and moderately formal, most reasonably comfortable adna f ew items kind of in style as far as I know. But I complain because I live in a time and place where going out to eat is the norm, where central heating and A/C are the standard for the middle classes, and where most people have cars. Sometimes I catch myself and laugh at myself.
My point is that maybe I’m falling into the rich mentality, never satisfied to have enough but rather comparing my life with a perfect life. Maybe that’s what it means to be too rich; forgetting we might have had nothing at all, and that no one owes us a life without effort or discomfort.

God Bless you strngrnrth. I think you put all to shame.
May God continue to Bless you abundantly.

Peace
James

 

[tr1954]

This past week, in one of the daily Mass readings, St. James said “Come now, you rich, weep and wail over your impending misery…you have stored up treasure for the last days”. He does mention that these rich have withheld wages from the workers, and murdered the righteous one, so maybe it is not the rich per se, but those who are unjust.

My question is this; is it a sin to store up treasures for the last days? Such as saving for retirement?

Another question: in various places in the Bible, there are warnings to the rich, who have already received their reward, and are basically doomed. Those who have enough to eat (woe to you who are filled now, you will be hungry). Who are these rich? How are we as Catholics supposed to live our lives without falling into the trap of being the rich that are threatened with punishment?

IMO, the Bible explains both sides of this issue. On one hand the message of St James is pretty clear, as he accuse those rich people…but that is in contradiction to the parable Jesus Himself said. But before I start this discussion, let me say that every rich people gets rich by being greedy to some extent. If everyone squanders wealth away, then no one would be rich, or should I say “have and abundance of goods” So is being rich a bad thing? Not at all!

Jesus Himself told us the parable as the Lord of the house went away for a long trip, and He gave to His servants gold talents…one got 10 pieces of gold, the other one got 5 pieces, and an other servant got 1 piece of gold talent. When the Lord of the house returned home, He summoned the servants and asked them what did they do with all the gold He gave them. The one who had 10 pieces made another 10 pieces to that, and the Lord rewarded him. So did He rewarded the one who had 5 pieces, and doubled his gold…yet He was very displeased with the one who hid the gold and gave it back to Him, without any profit. This parable indicates to me that God rewards greediness to a certain extent. He does not condemn those who created new, and doubled his wealth…but punished the one who remained idle with his share.

The creation of wealth is a noble thing to do. As I said before…every person who embarks on gathering wealth has to be somewhat greedy to achieve his goal. After all, they constantly must gather more than what they have, and that’s the real reason for their tireless work. Besides socialism, or communism which takes away from the producers of wealth, and then gives away the goods to those who in most instances are quite capable to produce themselves, is discouraged, as we see that those who “idle” and do not produce will lose what they have.

So in the end both sides of this issue is presented in the Bible…Now one might argue that the Apostle James is not against the rich per say, but he probably is against the UNJUST…it has validity, but you can’t find this aspect explained in his letters. I like to think that there must be a difference between gathering wealth without breaking the Law of God, and getting rich in an unjust manner…there is a difference. I just want to make clear that being rich the old fashioned way (by earning it) is still kosher.

 

[vern_humphrey]

IMO, the Bible explains both sides of this issue. On one hand the message of St James is pretty clear, as he accuse those rich people…but that is in contradiction to the parable Jesus Himself said. But before I start this discussion, let me say that every rich people gets rich by being greedy to some extent.

Which statement has all the Christian charity of saying, “But before I start this discussion, let me say that every poor people gets poor by being lazy to some extent.”

 

[goofyjim]

There is no sin in wealth or poverty. But carefully read Proverbs 30:8,9 and you’ll see why I don’t seek out either one. And I used to pray this before I was able to read the Bible.

 

[graceandglory]

There is no sin in wealth or poverty. But carefully read Proverbs 30:8,9 and you’ll see why I don’t seek out either one. And I used to pray this before I was able to read the Bible.

"Give me neither poverty nor riches–
Feed me with the food allotted to me,
Lest I be full and deny You,
And say, “Who is the Lord?”
Or lest I be poor and steal,
And profane the name of my God."/B]

 

[JRKH]

How shall we define “Rich”?

If we limit ourselves to only those who are Financially well off, we eliminate those who, like the Jimmy Stewart in “It’s a Wonderful Life” who has far more wealth in his community than the old Rich man could ever hope to have.

The question of riches does not lie in what one has, or does not have, but rather where our heart truly lies. Naturally if we are like Jimmy, our heart lies with others, their welfare, and security even if that means giving up his dreams and plans. Our bank accounts can reflect this to a certain extent but are not a completely true and accurate measure.

There are many poor souls with little money who are grasping, dishonest, and covetous every day of their lives. There are also wealthy people who give generously from the heart, and mostly quietly, because this is their nature.

Just some more to consider.

Peace
James

 

[ribozyme]

Which statement has all the Christian charity of saying, “But before I start this discussion, let me say that every poor people gets poor by being lazy to some extent.”

Every rich person became rich because they were greedy to some extent. (Even Soros.) laziness does not significantly correlate to poverty. You personally think all the people in poverty are lazy scum who deserve their unfortunate positions.

But being rich isn’t that bad as you NEED plenty of money to be charitable. If George Soros didn’t become rich, what could he done to benefit the world?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Every rich person became rich because they were greedy to some extent. (Even Soros.) laziness does not significantly correlate to poverty.

Bull!

You personally think all the people in poverty are lazy scum who deserve their unfortunate positions.

If that’s the best mindreading act you can do, don’t quit your day job.

But being rich isn’t that bad as you NEED plenty of money to be charitable. If George Soros didn’t become rich, what could he done to benefit the world?

I was not aware that George Soros is considered a net benefit to the world.

 

[Valentin]

I am managing certain business and of course, get more than people, that I am managing. I have to do certain things, that help business to go on and to grow. Sometimes I really feel marketing is cheating, but can we live in this world without this ?
Isn’t it better to live in this world and to make it better, that leave and go to do the caves or to the desert ?

 

[Valentin]

I think, Geroge Soros is a bad example. He looks like a masonry…

 

[jmcrae]

I am managing certain business and of course, get more than people, that I am managing. I have to do certain things, that help business to go on and to grow. Sometimes I really feel marketing is cheating, but can we live in this world without this ?

Why is marketing “cheating”?

And no, we can’t live in this world without marketing. Even priests have to have a certain number of people at every Mass, in order to keep their parish open, which means that they have to “market” their parish - do something that attracts people to come - such as having Mass on Mondays, if other parishes in the area don’t have a Monday Mass, or having events for kids, etc.

I think even if you lived alone in the wilderness, you would still have to do a certain amount of “marketing” - how else would you entice food animals to come into your traps?