Sin to get out of sinning

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traillius

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If a situation causes you to sin, and the only apparent way to get out of the situation is to do something that is a sin, what should you do. Staying and sinning, and using a sinful tactic to get out, seem equally bad. I hope I am not confusing the issue. Advice please. I know I don’t give specifics. Just general thoughts please.
 
I cannot think of a single sin that, in order to avoid it, requires the commission of another sin. Such would be an impossible situation, and God does not demand the impossible of us.

Could you please give an example (not necessarily the actual scenario that concerns you)?
 
What if you were a gang member who, in order to leave the gang had to commit a big crime before they would let you go? (I’m thinking the gang would require it in order to have leverage to blackmail you if you ever turned on them post-membership) Naturally, this would be under duress, but still, in order to get out of future crimes and sins, you might have to rob a liquor store or something.

Not a great example by any stretch, but an example all the same.

It’s an ‘Ends don’t justify the means’ scenerio.
 
traillius said:
If a situation causes you to sin, and the only apparent way to get out of the situation is to do something that is a sin, what should you do. Staying and sinning, and using a sinful tactic to get out, seem equally bad. I hope I am not confusing the issue. Advice please. I know I don’t give specifics. Just general thoughts please.
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Been there. Done that. It worked like a charm.

PM for details.

Peace.

-Trident
 
TyburnTreeHuggr said:
What if you were a gang member who, in order to leave the gang had to commit a big crime before they would let you go? (I’m thinking the gang would require it in order to have leverage to blackmail you if you ever turned on them post-membership) Naturally, this would be under duress, but still, in order to get out of future crimes and sins, you might have to rob a liquor store or something.

Not a great example by any stretch, but an example all the same.

It’s an ‘Ends don’t justify the means’ scenerio.
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Theologically you do the right thing. You can utilize the police, or hiding, but if they “didn’t let you” it would be akin to Roman military martyrs 🤷
 
traillius said:
If a situation causes you to sin, and the only apparent way to get out of the situation is to do something that is a sin, what should you do. Staying and sinning, and using a sinful tactic to get out, seem equally bad. I hope I am not confusing the issue. Advice please. I know I don’t give specifics. Just general thoughts please.
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It is difficult for me to believe that the Lord can allow us to be in such a situation. Surely He can show us how to get out of a situation without sinning. …Unless the “sinful tactic” is not a sin at all.
 
TyburnTreeHuggr said:
What if you were a gang member who, in order to leave the gang had to commit a big crime before they would let you go? (I’m thinking the gang would require it in order to have leverage to blackmail you if you ever turned on them post-membership) Naturally, this would be under duress, but still, in order to get out of future crimes and sins, you might have to rob a liquor store or something.

Not a great example by any stretch, but an example all the same.

It’s an ‘Ends don’t justify the means’ scenerio.
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You couldn’t go to the police, or leave town, or…?

The course of action as described is unacceptable because not only is it a sin, it would not free you. Once you had done it, what would stop them turning you in unless you continue to work for them?

In no way acceptable. ICXC NIKA
 
I think the answer is to pray. If we think sin is the only way out of sin, we are deceiving ourselves. Not saying it’s going to be easy.

The Catechism states:

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. **The end does not justify the means. **Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39

1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

I also think of 1 Cor. 10:13:

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
 
UpUpAndAway said:
I cannot think of a single sin that, in order to avoid it, requires the commission of another sin. Such would be an impossible situation, and God does not demand the impossible of us.

**Could you please give an example **(not necessarily the actual scenario that concerns you)?
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In my case, driving well over the speed limit to avoid being late for work, or late for Mass.

So, either break the law, and be ON TIME for Mass (or work), or drive the speed limit, but be LATE for Mass (or work).
 
Chayla said:
In my case, driving well over the speed limit to avoid being late for work, or late for Mass.

So, either break the law, and be ON TIME for Mass (or work), or drive the speed limit, but be LATE for Mass (or work).
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The problem is that being late even to Mass is not per se a sin, but breaking traffic laws without **grave **reason is a venial sin, and in some instances possibly mortal.

The solution would not be to speed, but to budget more time for the transit in question, or if necessary going to a later Mass.

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
The problem is that being late even to Mass is not per se a sin, but breaking traffic laws without **grave **reason is a venial sin, and in some instances possibly mortal.

The solution would not be to speed, but to budget more time for the transit in question, or if necessary going to a later Mass.

ICXC NIKA
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I’m always told to allow more time. And, was “chewed out” may times by priests in confession for my lack of timeliness when confessing being late to Mass, work, appointments, etc…

But, as much as I try to be timely, I ultimately fail. TIMELINESS IS THE SIN I STRUGGLE WITH THE MOST!

Or, to be more specific, my sin is DISORGANIZATION, and am often told "you better get it together."
 
Chayla said:
I’m always told to allow more time. And, was “chewed out” may times by priests in confession for my lack of timeliness when confessing being late to Mass, work, appointments, etc.

But, as much as I try to be timely, I ultimately fail. TIMELINESS IS THE SIN I STRUGGLE WITH THE MOST!

Or, to be more specific, my sin is DISORGANIZATION, and am often told "you better get it together."
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GEddie said:
but breaking traffic laws without **grave **reason is a venial sin, and in some instances possibly mortal.
ICXC NIKA
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Seriously?

I have driven many a road marked 15mph that are SUPER SAFELY 30mph… and hit roads marked 25mph that felt like a Gforce ride at an amusement park at 20mph.

The road near my house in some spots is 55mph YOU HAVE TO BE NUTS especially at night to do 55. Maybe maybe 45 and much 40…

In one “trap” spot (I didn’t even know about it) there is one of the SAFEST STRAIGHTEST spots that rolling through one could almost actually do 55… but it is marked as 25… you will get a ticket at 35 in uddder confusion on this seemingly 55mph road as you drive (thinking under) the speed limit…since as a trap spot

If you claim that breaking the traffic “law” is a sin… then so is not getting an abortion in china.

Being willfully dangerous to the serious and sensible risk of human destruction maybe a sin yes… but these are two different things.
 
If you claim that breaking the traffic “law” is a sin… then so is not getting an abortion in china.
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The difference being that we are to obey **just **laws, and traffic laws are that, but laws that require abortion are not.

ICXC NIKA
 
Chayla said:
In my case, driving well over the speed limit to avoid being late for work, or late for Mass.
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Of course, this is not really being forced to sin.

One is simply choosing to sin because they don’t want to deal with the natural consequences of whatever is (inexcusably) making them late.
 
GEddie said:
The difference being that we are to obey **just **laws, and traffic laws are that, but laws that require abortion are not.

ICXC NIKA
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Okay, considering not taking into account the rest of my post 🤷
 
LethalMouse said:
Okay, considering not taking into account the rest of my post 🤷
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I think he’s perfectly justified in his response.

Comparing traffic laws to the Chinese government’s mandate of having abortions is absolutely way over the top.

Why?

Because traffic laws are just laws enacted by a just government. Of course they should be obeyed. The example of the Chinese is just the opposite. Their laws regarding babies are absolutely unjust and, as such, are not laws at all.

A government can’t order murder to be committed. They have no right to do so. A government can set rules for everyone to follow on the road. They have to do so to avoid chaos.

So what is the problem here? You feel justified in disobeying certain traffic laws you disagree with. Fine. That doesn’t overthrow the principles. It’s actually quite irrelevant.

But this is way off topic. Let’s not turn this into a discussion of your driving habits or what sort of roads your town has.
 
LiamQ said:
But this is way off topic. Let’s not turn this into a discussion of your driving habits or what sort of roads your town has.
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I guess you win by default when you engage a side issue and then declare it closed.
 
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