Sin

[kalt]

Dove-tailing from some of the other answers, Scripture does speak of how sin causes us to become slaves to sin. It is this which is a bridle unto our wills.

Right!! And this is exactly why we shouldn’t fall into the comforting, though ultimately deadly trap of believing that we don’t want to do exactly what we’re doing at the time.

We have to hold ourselves responsible for what we do. When that thinking (that it’s society that makes us do what we do. That we can’t help sinning because we’re only human) becomes our default thinking, the sins creep in and become habit. This thinking and these actions become what we do. We do these things, though we know they are wrong. And the more we think that we don’t have control over these actions (thinking that it’s not really our fault, that it’s just our weak nature), the more willing we are to choose to do nothing about how we are behaving (sinning).

Isn’t it better to admit that at the moment we commit this sin, we are doing exactly what we want to do? Isn’t it better to be honest with ourselves and with God in Confession? He knows our heart, so we’re not hiding anything from Him when we try to claim that the sins we commit are commited against our will (aren’t what we wanted to do).

If we examine each sin for what it really is - our will at the time - and take ourselves to task for it, examining why we choose to do what we know is wrong instead of what is right, we’ll be much better off than we are if we cut ourselves a break each time, claiming that society forces us to commit these things. It’s not an easy thing to admit that we know A and do B, but it’s honest. Doesn’t God ask for an** honest** examination of our consciences when we make a good confession? Does he expect excuses or honest contrition? Does he expect you to blame outside forces or to take responsibility?

Who can claim that society’s influence is a good excuse, when God demands that we follow His influence?

If you think of it that way–if you admit to yourself that society is the weaker influence (or should be) - who can say that society is at fault? Aren’t we all guilty of choosing the weaker influence over the stronger, because we wanted to do what we wanted instead of what God wanted?

Simply saying to yourself, “I chose to do this.”, blaming no one and nothing else, accepting in your mind and heart that no influence should be more powerful than God’s, is good medicine for what ails you.

We are blinded in the moment and do something we shouldn’t do out of fear or indulgence or whatever.

I understand what you were trying to say in the OP though. The person who does commit the sin in a very real sense want to commit it. The cause is the imperfect use of the will.

As Dr. Peter Kreeft says, why do we keep sinning? Because we’re insane.

 

[kalt]

I agree the child surely knows they are not supposed to do it. I sure did back then, anyway.

You are running into the strange use of language I have, that I have a slight tendency to choose the word “sin” when I want to think about wrongdoing under the specific aspect of a/all wrongdoing being an offense against God. For very few wrong acts, though, is my primary thought about it that is is an offense against God. Usually I am lucky to manage to think that something seems wrong before I plunge right in. I rarely manage to grasp in what the wrongness consists or, further, that God is noticing the whole affair. It is only after the fact that it might occur to me that it offended God or might not be consistent with loving him.

I think the upshot of this post is that I need to pray *more *than once a day for perfect contrition. Sigh.

Me to:thumbsup:

Some say that it’s easy to sin. IMO, it’s hard. Whenever I do something that I know is wrong, there’s that struggle with it. I know it’s wrong, and my mind fights itself. My blood pressure must go up. My pulse feels like it speeds up. And I do it anyway, though I’m alredy worrying about the consequences. I know that if I am found out, it won’t be good. If my actions are known to all, I would be ashamed. I know that God’s watching, but I choose to push that thought away. It doesn’t seem right, even at the time, and I fight God’s influence and my conscience.

It’s funny that many want to blame society, because the very society they say is influencing them to sin, will turn on them in an instant if these actions are exposed. If you lie, though everyone is lying, and it becomes public knowledge, society will not trust you. You see, when society is wrong and you follow that influence, you are wrong. And isn’t it typical of humans that we hate in others what we hate in ourselves? We know it’s wrong to steal, but some make exceptions for themselves. The credit card bill comes in and your recent high ticket item isn’t listed on it. You say nothing. You take the largest allowed deduction for charitable docations without receipts, though you didn’t donate that much. You keep the ring you found in a purse that you bought at a thrift shop.

Actually, that last one comes to mind because someone working at the local thrift shop found a ring in a pocket (a coat, suit jacket?) and worked to find the original owner. The owner gave the charity a nice donation after getting her very expensive ring back. The story made the news, simply because it was unexpected. Imagine if the worker had kept the ring and that was found out!! Society says "finders keepers’, but when you are the finder and someone finds you out, look out. Society suddenly becomes shocked.

We are a willful lot.

 

[kalt]

Scripture says the righteous man sins seven times a day.
Is that to say that a righteous man would intentionally do something that would offend God?
I do not think so. It does however point to the reality that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Each of us has done things in his or her life intentionally or unintentionally that are at odds to the relationship we desire with God and/or one another.
The harm that we cause in a relationship is sin, whether it was our desire to cause harm to the relationship or not.
There are different levels of sin. There is mortal sin that is grievous and involves forethought. There are also times when we act without thinking, causing harm in the process.
Using the analogy of a broken window.
A person may throw a rock at the window and intentionally break it. Another person may be playing baseball and the ball breaks the window. In either case the window was broken. The person playing baseball had no intention of breaking the window although he may have known the possibility it could happen. In both cases, the window is broken.

Right. And the accident isn’t a sin. It’s not a sin, because, though he thought about his action (hitting a baseball), he didn’t hit it to break the window. It was an accident. A kid thought about hitting or throwing a ball, but didn’t intend to throw or hit it at the window. It’s not about forethought. It’s about intention. If you intend to break the window and you miss, IMO, you’ve still commited a sin. If you intend to hit a homerun and instead foul it off through a neighbor’s window, there is no sin.

Harm in a relationship. What harm? If you say mean things to your spouse, what could be the iintention? Revenge? To hurt? To deflect blame by picking on the other person? You may say these things in anger, but the intention is to harm the other.

Or are you thinking of things like leaving home though your parents feel bad? (or something like that) Where is the sin in something like that?

Maybe you’re thinking of social things, like not remembering your wife’s birthday. The wife gets steamy over it. But really, is not sending a birthday card a sin? This is really a differnce of opinion, imo. They have to work out what they want to do about birthdays. (In my family, adults’ birthdays aren’t celebrated.) Now, if the wife calls her husband all kinds of names and insults his masculinity over this card, **she **is guilty of a sin. We’ve all seen men being berated over forgetting some foolish event. In fact, it’s a common theme on sitcoms.

If you’re driving a truck and someone runs under it while you’re starting to drive (this happened here), killing him isn’t a sin. If you see someone in the road and you intentionally hit him, this is a sin.

There are sins and there are unfortunate outcomes of innocent actions.

Sin causes a rift in our relationships with God and one another.The act that cause the rift is the sin regardless of intention.

Are you saying that someone who goes to another country and gives someone a thumbs-up (a country where that is an insult) is guilty of a sin, though he didn’t intentionally insult someone?

 

[empurpledsoul]

kalt:
My statement that many of our responses are not choice per se, but can be human reactions, is not to remove our culpability for them! Heavens no. Every single act we perform is recorded and we are fully accountable for it. But we make the choice to CHANGE our ‘natural’ reactions and responses through effort and consciousness.

WE are not all deliberately choosing to be sinners, we are here to choose to overcome that in our human nature which makes us weak, which causes us to respond in a less than perfect way in the world. My imperfection is not an offense to God, only my choosing to not recognize it and to not attempt to master myself or change it would be an ‘offense’ to God if any.

But again, I state that God is above offense, because God is perfect love.

God gives us the way to overcome our sinful nature in that it harms US and it harms each other and in the end does not produce joy, love or abundant peace. God desires out of love that we choose to embrace the way out of sin so that we can be fully blessed, not because He is offended and doesn’t want to be.

I know without a doubt that every thought, word, action of every nano second of my life and every other human on earth is given back upon death in a process which allows me to not only recall the moment through my skin, thoughts, emotions, but I will receive what I have created when I have sinned against others, if I have harmed I am the one who will feel the harm I caused, and if I have touched a life with love, joy or blessing, I will be the one receiving this in experience as I review all that my life contained. And when I do this, I will be best off to have learned not to judge, condemn or hate others for their weakness, error or sin against me, to not be ‘offended’, but to work on love, forgiveness and charity toward my fellow humans who are as imperfect as I and who are pushed by the same impulses and reactions I might have had on days I was less able to ‘be perfect in my mastery over self’.

I choose to always strive toward better mastery over my reactions, thoughts, responses to the world around me, but I also strive toward a mastery over love and non-judgement that does not remember wrong, is not offended by the ‘sins’ of others and is able to forgive even the most horrible crimes upon me. Because this too is what I will have when I view my own errors, sins and harm upon others resulting from a life of striving for perfection but never fully attaining it.

I choose to strive, but I do not choose to fail. And only Gods perfect love can heal that failing.

 

[DebChris]

I choose to strive, but I do not choose to fail. And only Gods perfect love can heal that failing.

It comes back to the sin of Adam and Eve. They believed the lie that they did not need God.
Even in today’s readings when the Apostles stood up to the Sanhedrin did they not point to their not knowing what they had done? Did they lose culpability because of their unknowing or were they called to repentance when their sin was revealed to them?
“I do not do what I would, but do instead that which I would not.” I need the grace of God to keep me from succumbing to the temptation of sin.
We pray to God not only to keep us from sin, but from the near occasion as well, from that situation that might escalate and the window is broken because we were where we did not belong. The damage is done and needs to be repaired whether or not it was our intention to break the window. Upon breaking the window, the person has two options. One is to run away and pretend that nothing happened. The window is still broken. The other is to admit fault, to take responsibility for the action that resulted in the broken window. Which action is more likely to diminish the anger of the person whose window was broken?

 

[Pug]

Some say that it’s easy to sin. IMO, it’s hard. Whenever I do something that I know is wrong, there’s that struggle with it. I know it’s wrong, and my mind fights itself. My blood pressure must go up. My pulse feels like it speeds up. And I do it anyway, though I’m alredy worrying about the consequences. I know that if I am found out, it won’t be good. If my actions are known to all, I would be ashamed. I know that God’s watching, but I choose to push that thought away. It doesn’t seem right, even at the time, and I fight God’s influence and my conscience.

If only we could set a little red flag to go off whenever we felt as you describe, sort of like a note to self: I promised myself the next time I felt this way that I wouldn’t do it. I’d probably just ignore my little red flag, though. But once or twice I have managed to recognize feeling similar to how you describe and on those grounds alone refused to do whatever it was. I always hate feeling as you described when it happens. There is a feeling of reluctance, maybe. I don’t know.

It’s funny that many want to blame society, because the very society they say is influencing them to sin, will turn on them in an instant if these actions are exposed. If you lie, though everyone is lying, and it becomes public knowledge, society will not trust you. You see, when society is wrong and you follow that influence, you are wrong. And isn’t it typical of humans that we hate in others what we hate in ourselves? We know it’s wrong to steal, but some make exceptions for themselves.

You are right, whatever one might call “society” is no place to set the foundations of our moral compass. I think, though, that we come fairly well wired to set at least part of it there. It is a struggle to remove it from those moorings.

Actually, that last one comes to mind because someone working at the local thrift shop found a ring in a pocket (a coat, suit jacket?) and worked to find the original owner.

That probably took some doing! An excellent example of patience. It would have been far easier to dump it on the store’s “lost and found” box.

We are a willful lot.

Indeed.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

If only we could set a little red flag to go off whenever we felt as you describe, sort of like a note to self: I promised myself the next time I felt this way that I wouldn’t do it. I’d probably just ignore my little red flag, though. But once or twice I have managed to recognize feeling similar to how you describe and on those grounds alone refused to do whatever it was. I always hate feeling as you described when it happens. There is a feeling of reluctance, maybe. I don’t know.

At this point, it’s time to hit the knees. There are many temptations out there that sometimes seem pretty insurmountable. Satan strikes with a vengance and you can be sure he knows each and every one of our weaknesses. The only way to combat his attacks is on our knees with fervant (sic) prayer at the time of the attacks. The problem is, most of us fail to realize that this is what God wants us to do when the advisary (sic) makes his move upon us, it is for these instances that God has provided us with the Holy
Spirit.

 

[kalt]

My statement that many of our responses are not choice per se, but can be human reactions, is not to remove our culpability for them! Heavens no. Every single act we perform is recorded and we are fully accountable for it. But we make the choice to CHANGE our ‘natural’ reactions and responses through effort and consciousness.

WE are not all deliberately choosing to be sinners, we are here to choose to overcome that in our human nature which makes us weak, which causes us to respond in a less than perfect way in the world. My imperfection is not an offense to God, only my choosing to not recognize it and to not attempt to master myself or change it would be an ‘offense’ to God if any.

But again, I state that God is above offense, because God is perfect love.

God gives us the way to overcome our sinful nature in that it harms US and it harms each other and in the end does not produce joy, love or abundant peace. God desires out of love that we choose to embrace the way out of sin so that we can be fully blessed, not because He is offended and doesn’t want to be.

I know without a doubt that every thought, word, action of every nano second of my life and every other human on earth is given back upon death in a process which allows me to not only recall the moment through my skin, thoughts, emotions, but I will receive what I have created when I have sinned against others, if I have harmed I am the one who will feel the harm I caused, and if I have touched a life with love, joy or blessing, I will be the one receiving this in experience as I review all that my life contained. And when I do this, I will be best off to have learned not to judge, condemn or hate others for their weakness, error or sin against me, to not be ‘offended’, but to work on love, forgiveness and charity toward my fellow humans who are as imperfect as I and who are pushed by the same impulses and reactions I might have had on days I was less able to ‘be perfect in my mastery over self’.

I choose to always strive toward better mastery over my reactions, thoughts, responses to the world around me, but I also strive toward a mastery over love and non-judgement that does not remember wrong, is not offended by the ‘sins’ of others and is able to forgive even the most horrible crimes upon me. Because this too is what I will have when I view my own errors, sins and harm upon others resulting from a life of striving for perfection but never fully attaining it.

I choose to strive, but I do not choose to fail. And only Gods perfect love can heal that failing.

Actually, you do choose to fail. When you know something is wrong and you do it anyway, you fail.

 

[kalt]

It comes back to the sin of Adam and Eve. They believed the lie that they did not need God.

They chose to do what God told them not to do. This was a choice. God held them responsible for it.
Even in today’s readings when the Apostles stood up to the Sanhedrin did they not point to their not knowing what they had done? Did they lose culpability because of their unknowing or were they called to repentance when their sin was revealed to them?
“I do not do what I would, but do instead that which I would not.” I need the grace of God to keep me from succumbing to the temptation of sin.
We pray to God not only to keep us from sin, but from the near occasion as well, from that situation that might escalate and the window is broken because we were where we did not belong. The damage is done and needs to be repaired whether or not it was our intention to break the window. Upon breaking the window, the person has two options. One is to run away and pretend that nothing happened. The window is still broken. The other is to admit fault, to take responsibility for the action that resulted in the broken window. Which action is more likely to diminish the anger of the person whose window was broken?

 

[Pug]

At this point, it’s time to hit the knees. There are many temptations out there that sometimes seem pretty insurmountable. Satan strikes with a vengance and you can be sure he knows each and every one of our weaknesses. The only way to combat his attacks is on our knees with fervant (sic) prayer at the time of the attacks. The problem is, most of us fail to realize that this is what God wants us to do when the advisary (sic) makes his move upon us, it is for these instances that God has provided us with the Holy
Spirit.

You are right, Sabbath Keeper, prayer is a great response when we experience difficult temptations. And, furthermore, you are also right that we don’t always think to do it. Maybe it is our stubborn streak of old habits of relying upon our own power, like somehow we imagine we are alone in the battle.

 

[kalt]

At this point, it’s time to hit the knees. There are many temptations out there that sometimes seem pretty insurmountable. Satan strikes with a vengance and you can be sure he knows each and every one of our weaknesses. The only way to combat his attacks is on our knees with fervant (sic) prayer at the time of the attacks. The problem is, most of us fail to realize that this is what God wants us to do when the advisary (sic) makes his move upon us, it is for these instances that God has provided us with the Holy
Spirit.

This is when I think memorized prayer is helpful. When your mind is reeling, saying a prayer that you know by heart and that says what you need to say (which gets your mind thinking straight) is sometimes the only thing you can think in a sensible way. While your mind is fighting with itself, it’s hard to formulate the thoughts for the exact help you need. When you’re saying “but” to yourself, it’s hard to ask for help–you’re still fighting to have your own way.

Sometimes prayer with no formed thought and no words whatsoever is all that you can muster.

Actually, I pray that way often. Not because I’m fighting with myself over anything particular, but because sometimes there don’t seem to be words to express what you feel–the words fall short of expressing what you really mean.

How do you like to pray?

 

[John7]

For something to be a sin, you have to do it wilfully. You have the choice to do the right thing or the wrong, and when you sin you choose the wrong.

You know that you are wrong even as you do these things, but you do them anyway.

but what about sins one commits without knowing that it is sin…what’s it called…‘sin through ignorance’, Leviticus 4 eg
27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;…31…and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

is there still ‘sin through ignorance’ for NT Christians ?..or do we always know what we are doing?

 

[DebChris]

but what about sins one commits without knowing that it is sin…what’s it called…‘sin through ignorance’, Leviticus 4 eg
27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;…31…and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

is there still ‘sin through ignorance’ for NT Christians ?..or do we always know what we are doing?

That is one of the differences between venial and mortal sin. A mortal sin must not only be grievous, it must be committed with knowledge and forethought. There are many things that we do without thinking. We are still responsible for our actions, however those actions do not carry the full weight of an intentionally committed sin. It is when we discover our sin that we can repent of the wrong that we have done.

 

[kalt]

but what about sins one commits without knowing that it is sin…what’s it called…‘sin through ignorance’, Leviticus 4 eg
27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;…31…and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

is there still ‘sin through ignorance’ for NT Christians ?..or do we always know what we are doing?

As far as I know, there is.

Cannibals that grow up away from societies that teach against cannibalism aren’t guilty of sin.

People who are brought up thinking that the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon, or even just the run of the mill evil, aren’t guilty of sin when they use ABC, imo. They have no way of knowing that the CC is right on this issue and that ABC is a sin. They are told to distrust the CC almost from birth.

But that is just my opinion. Maybe someone here can give you a more authoritative answer.

 

[Pug]

but what about sins one commits without knowing that it is sin…what’s it called…‘sin through ignorance’, Leviticus 4 eg27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;…31…and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.is there still ‘sin through ignorance’ for NT Christians ?..or do we always know what we are doing?

For example, if a person inadvertently fails to go to mass because they are easily confused and thought it was Monday, and then the next day they wake up and find out that it is now Monday and thus yesterday had been Sunday, then this person is not held accountable for having missed mass on Sunday. A Catholic does not have to go to confession for that.

It also might be of interest to you that in the case of an inadvertent violation of the law, we no longer have to offer a sacrifice (a sin/purification offering) once we realize our error, as was described in Numbers 15 and Leviticus 4. Such sacrifices are no longer required.

But perhaps you meant if a person stabs his own mother to death but “had no idea that murder was wrong”, what then? In the case of some sins, it is assumed that your average Joe has some knowledge about it. We are not deemed ignorant of the principles of moral law, whatever that might mean:

**1860 **Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

It would be up to God to know in the case of a particular person what they knew or did not know.