Since its halloween....ghosts?

[louisak]

I bet you can live in Australia for years and never see a platypus, either.

 

[louisak]

When they told her the date of the accident she recalled that it was the very day of her husband’s mysterious appearance and disappearance. She remained convinced to the end of her days that her husband had come home to say goodbye to her.

I was thinking some more about this… I have heard similar stories before, and certain elements always seem to recur. The mysterious appearance always seems to have occurred, as far as can can be determined, at the moment of the person’s death. These appearances are usually categorized as ghosts, yet it just occurred to me that there is another explanation. Maybe these phenomena occur, not after the person’s death, but immediately beforehand. Maybe in such cases of sudden or violent death, the person somehow is able, in the split second before death, to appear to loved ones in order to say goodbye. This would really be an instance of bilocation rather than a ghost, since the person in question is actually not yet dead when the appearance occurs.

Just a guess.

 

[ChibiViolet]

Having a naturally pedantic personality, I used to confidently assert that there are no “ghosts” that haunt this earth. Our souls are immediately judged after death and either go to hell, to purgatory, or (presumably extremely rarely at least for adults) directly to heaven. People in heaven or purgatory, and even in hell, might be revealed to a living person or be allowed to reveal themselves, but this would surely take the form of a “vision”, not anything like what is described in ghost stories.

However, as I’ve grown a bit older I’ve learned to be little a more intellectually humble and slightly less ready to voice my ill-informed opinions. **Many Catholic exorcists apparently are convinced of the existence of “ghosts” that haunt houses or other such places and which are definitely not demons. **Historically, Catholics have often believed in ghosts while Protestants in the same region have often disbelieved in them.

Maybe our guesses are wrong about what Purgatory, for example, is like or in what manner God would allow a departed soul to make contact with this world.

Also maybe a ghost is something other than the soul of the departed- maybe some kind of psychological imprint left in the universe that physical science has yet to be able to understand, for example. I believe Chesterton took a position similar to this, and declared something like “if you are being haunted by your uncle’s ghost, your uncle [referring to his actual soul] probably knows nothing about it.”

Or maybe all these ghost stories are really just folklore: the products of liars and lunatics, and demonic deceptions, and of course fireside tales not meant to be taken seriously.

I for one don’t know, and to my knowledge the Catholic Church has not taken a definitive stance on the subject.

If there are human spirits haunting houses, they are most likely in Purgatory and are certainly not in Heaven. Whatever the case, this is a very uncommon occurance.

If by “ghosts,” you mean wandering spirits, you are believing something contradictory to Church teaching (and as are others on this thread who believe in them as such, obviously.) This is also something I read in “An Exorcist Tells His Story.” Fr. Amorth quoted to Cathechim, although I don’t remember the quote and couldn’t find it when I tried to look it up (otherwise, I would quote it here.)

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

I lived in a small village for nine years that was, literally, surrounded by the graves of more than 7,000 people, many of whom had died in the most lonely, horrible, heart-wrenching conditions imaginable. It’s difficult to imagine better circumstances in which to meet ghosts and yet not once during that nine year period did I ever witness anything even remotely ghost-like. If personal, eye-witness testimony counts as reliable evidence in support of the existence of ghosts (as Peter Kreeft’s article implies), then so should mine against that proposition.

“I did see ghosts” implies that there are ghosts. “I didn’t see ghosts” has no bearing as to whether or not there are ghosts. Also a cemetery treated with religious respect and absent any occult influence is not a likely place to find ghost, as it is a holy place, many times blessed.

 

[Julia_Mae]

An apparition is not the same thing as a ghost. It is specifically ghosts that we are discussing on this thread, although some people seem to have gotten the two things confused… But the OP clearly had the modern meaning in mind, with the reference to Halloween and so forth.

I think an online definition is as modern as it gets:

ap·pa·ri·tion   [ap-uh-rish-uhn]
noun
1.
a supernatural appearance of a person or thing, especially a ghost; a specter or phantom; wraith: a ghostly apparition at midnight.
2.
anything that appears, especially something remarkable or startling: the surprising apparition of cowboys in New York City.
3.
an act of appearing; manifestation.
4.
Astronomy . the appearance or time when a comet, especially a periodic one, is visible: the 1986 apparition of Halley’s comet.

Would you like to make the distinction you have in mind between an apparition and a ghost? I don’t see why they should be different. And hey, it’s not Halloween anymore, but All Saints, so seems appropriate to discuss the differences.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Maybe in such cases of sudden or violent death, the person somehow is able, in the split second before death, to appear to loved ones in order to say goodbye. This would really be an instance of bilocation rather than a ghost, since the person in question is actually not yet dead when the appearance occurs.

Just a guess.

I like this. People who have NDE’s often report being around their body and able to move around before they enter tunnels and such.

 

[louisak]

Would you like to make the distinction you have in mind between an apparition and a ghost? I don’t see why they should be different.

If you don’t see why they should be different, then I will repeat my question: would you describe the appearance of the Blessed Virgin at Lourdes, or at Fatima, as a ghost? I couldn’t use the word in that context, it just seems so wrong.

Ghosts, in my mind, are shadowy, whereas Heavenly messengers (apparitions) are usually associated with light and glory. Ghosts seem to be lost and sad, whereas those in Heaven are full of joy. To me, there is all the difference in the world between the two things.

 

[Julia_Mae]

If you don’t see why they should be different, then I will repeat my question: would you describe the appearance of the Blessed Virgin at Lourdes, or at Fatima, as a ghost? I couldn’t use the word in that context, it just seems so wrong.

I agree, it does seem wrong because we have so many connotations associated with the word “ghost.” But the question is: are they different? I don’t mean spooky haunted house type reported appearances, but when someone sees their mother, say, standing by their bed one night and then find she passed during the night four states away, this is not a ghost in my mind, either.

 

[louisak]

I don’t mean spooky haunted house type reported appearances, but when someone sees their mother, say, standing by their bed one night and then find she passed during the night four states away, this is not a ghost in my mind, either.

Yes that does seem to be quite different from what people usually mean by a ghost. Lack of precision in our terminology is part of the problem. The word ghost can refer to different things, as the discussion on this thread has made clear, and we don’t have enough knowledge to be able to name them precisely.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Yes that does seem to be quite different from what people usually mean by a ghost. Lack of precision in our terminology is part of the problem. The word ghost can refer to different things, as the discussion on this thread has made clear, and** we don’t have enough knowledge to be able to name them precisely**.

Divine
Angelic
Saintly
Purgatorial
Revenant (This is what I call the unintelligent recording like ghosts.)
Astral Projection (Does anyone have a name for this with less association to the likes of Sylvia Brown?)
Hellion
Demonic
Diabolical (i.e. Satan and the other princes of hell)

These are all those I can think of off the top of my head, but feel free to point some out.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

No one?

 

[louisak]

No one?

I don’t think you’re going to find much interest in this. Some of the names/concepts you have listed are pretty dubious. Astral projection? That’s science fiction. And what is the difference between demonic and diabolical? I always thought they meant the same thing. Besides it is unhealthy to get too interested in demons/devils etc. We need to keep our focus on the Heavenly realm and not the other.

 

[mamamayi]

thanks for all the responses. As somone said here, i found the link of st. mike.org very useful and answrered most of my questions. and as another said there are different types of “ghosts”. the seven types of “ghosts” were explained on st. mike.org which makes a lot of sense now. So all of you can be “right” . For there are many types and many ways of looking at things. As that site said–the subject matter must be approached with much skepticism as some are on here. I am skeptic but yes I personally have seen ghosts. I can’t be the only one? Most of you have said a relative or a friend etc had seen one but I am surprised at such few personal experiences. I have seen many and I do think there are 7 different types.

 

[louisak]

As somone said here, i found the link of st. mike.org very useful and answrered most of my questions…

There is no web site st.mike.org

 

[Aelred_Minor]

If there are human spirits haunting houses, they are most likely in Purgatory and are certainly not in Heaven. Whatever the case, this is a very uncommon occurance.

If by “ghosts,” you mean wandering spirits, you are believing something contradictory to Church teaching (and as are others on this thread who believe in them as such, obviously.) This is also something I read in “An Exorcist Tells His Story.” Fr. Amorth quoted to Cathechim, although I don’t remember the quote and couldn’t find it when I tried to look it up (otherwise, I would quote it here.)

The quote you are looking for might be in the section about the four last things, at a guess.

Certainly there is a personal judgement immediately after death, after which the person goes to heaven, hell, or purgatory, and any interpretation of ghosts that denies this would clearly be contradictory to Church teaching. But as I mentioned in my first post, either our identification of these “ghosts” as being the souls of the dead or our assumptions about how the souls of the dead are allowed to interact with this world might be at fault.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

I don’t think you’re going to find much interest in this. Some of the names/concepts you have listed are pretty dubious. Astral projection? That’s science fiction. And what is the difference between demonic and diabolical? I always thought they meant the same thing. Besides it is unhealthy to get too interested in demons/devils etc. We need to keep our focus on the Heavenly realm and not the other.

A devil is a demon, but a demon is not necessarily a devil. Satan, Beelzebub, and Belial would be examples of devils. Regarding “Astral Projection”, I don’t like that name for it, especially because it has connotations of occult practice. “Out of body experience” would be a better term; the concept I am trying to explain is a human spirit acting apart from the body which seems to be implied at least as a possibility by 2 Corinthians XII 2-5:

[2] I know a man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth), [4] That he was caught up into paradise, and heard secret words, which it is not granted to man to utter. [5] For such an one I will glory; but for myself I will glory nothing, but in my infirmities.

Besides it is unhealthy to get too interested in demons/devils etc. We need to keep our focus on the Heavenly realm and not the other.

That is not quite true. What is dangerous is fascination with the preternatural, or when you give study of the subject a higher place in your life than the things of God. I don’t recommend one study such things without the right motivations, or with the wrong ones.