Since Jesus says in the Gospel that there will always be the poor and the unfortunate, why should I do any good work?

[MarcoPG]

Hello!

Well, that is the last of my discussions with friends. They point out that Jesus tells his followers that there is poverty etc. and there will be until He comes. So, am I asked, why should I do any of these works of mercy?

I responded because we happen t know it is good! If you are a good person, you do good, if you are a person of faith, you do good for God’s sake, not because it gives you anything, not because you are told to, but because you know it is the right thing.

Alright then, he says: let’s imagine we get to a point that everyone on this earth has what he needs, what do we do of these commands?

As you said, I replied, we won’t be able to make the world totally happy and give it all it needs. And even if we were able to, then what comes? Greed, pride, and so on. So it is not about food and clothes and friendship, as you see if you start looking at it a bit deeper.

Ok, he said, but that sounds to me like there is no end to this, I’d better not start if I know I cannot achieve what I am working for.

After this I just thought to myself that these works are fruits of our fath, good deeds in a non egoistic way, and that it is morally clear to do good, if you have any idea of what the Good may be. But I thought this woudn’t bring much to the very real issue he was talking about.

How would you develop this idea that even if we can’t eradicate poverty, hunger and such completely, it is no excuse not to do something?

Thank you

 

[Stephen_says]

Even if we never eradicate poverty, that is not the point. The point is LOVE.

You share the love of God with everyone in the way that they need his Love shared. For the poor, it is by providing Love through maybe money and food, it is what they need to live. For the sick, it is providing Love through care and medicine. To the friendless, it is providing Love through friendship.

Even though you as a person, or even we as a society, may not be able to completely eradicate the poverty, that doesn’t mean we can’t solve the problem. The problem is not poverty, it is a lack of Love, and the way to solve the problem is by creating an abundance of Love.

Peace

 

[TheLeastofThese]

Even if we never eradicate poverty, that is not the point. The point is LOVE.

You share the love of God with everyone in the way that they need his Love shared. For the poor, it is by providing Love through maybe money and food, it is what they need to live. For the sick, it is providing Love through care and medicine. To the friendless, it is providing Love through friendship.

Even though you as a person, or even we as a society, may not be able to completely eradicate the poverty, that doesn’t mean we can’t solve the problem. The problem is not poverty, it is a lack of Love, and the way to solve the problem is by creating an abundance of Love.

Peace

Amen and Amen!

 

[kenmiller]

My pastor recently discussed as a homily where Christ preached giving while Robin Hood was about taking-

Maybe that helps?

 

[MarcoPG]

I told him about Love, but his opinion was it is stupid to start something no one can achieve.

The Robin Hood comparison doesn’t help that much, I think, because the real poor isn’t taking, and if he steals, he would have an excuse.
Robin Hood also had to take things from other people. So do we, we take from ourselves in love. Jesus didn’t have to take from anyone, what He gaves was Himself, even when he gave people food; those fishes and bread were a start, transformedby God.

But all this doesn’t seem to help him understand why Love works this way. Why it isn’t about the achievement, but to show God’s love.

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

You need to approach it from a point of view closer to his heart.
I will make up a scenario here and you can adjust the characters as needed.
Ask him what he would do if his mom and sister were (GOD FORBID)
found to be living on skid row, and his sister was extremely ill and in need
of a doctor, but he, living miles away can’t get there in time to help her.
He then learns of a friends relative who lives near his mother & sister,
and the friend gives him the relatives phone number.
Does he ring the person to get help for his family?
or does he not bother because God deemed some of us to be sick and die?

Most people who are acting maturely will save their family.
When he says this ask him why he would bother if it doesn’t change anything.

Then remind your friends that on the day of Judgment they will cry out for mercy
and charity and love and they will receive all that they have done.
Nothing. Then they will know the suffering and longing of the poor and the needy.

Then take them to a soup kitchen to help out. (Just once)
It will work on their hearts for the rest of their lives.
But most of all, Pray for your friends. and don’t forget the poor suffering souls in Purgatory.
They need our prayers desperately. then they will pray ten fold for you.

Jesus says: "The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these."2

The apostle St. Paul reminds us of this: "He who loves his neighbour has fulfilled the law. The commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,’ and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ Love does no wrong to a neighbour; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."3

Hope this helps,
May God bless you and your friends.
Pete.:tiphat:

 

[SurfingTheTiber]

Why it isn’t about the achievement, but to show God’s love.

This. +1
Here’s how I see this. It’s also about God showing His love to us through our interactions with the poor. Remember Jesus encounter with the rich you man? His question to Jesus was how he could gain eternal life. After running through a list of commandments,
"Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!”
On the other hand, we have Jesus’ encounter with the tax collector Zacchaeus. After dining with Jesus he says,
“Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
In both cases Jesus identifies giving sacrificially to the poor with the redemption, not of the recipient, but of the giver. There seems to be a connection between loosening our grip on the world’s standard of gain and achievement that frees us up to experience God’s love. In this way sharing with the poor enables all of us to experience God’s love.

 

[MarcoPG]

You need to approach it from a point of view closer to his heart.
I will make up a scenario here and you can adjust the characters as needed.
Ask him what he would do if his mom and sister were (GOD FORBID)
found to be living on skid row, and his sister was extremely ill and in need
of a doctor, but he, living miles away can’t get there in time to help her.
…]

Then take them to a soup kitchen to help out. (Just once)
…]

Jesus says: "The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these."2

**The apostle St. Paul reminds us **of this: "He who loves his neighbour has fulfilled the law. The commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,’ and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ Love does no wrong to a neighbour; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."3

…].
Pete.:tiphat:

He woud help his family becaue it is his family. But why should we help people we do not know or even see? Love, but that doesn’t help

The same issue he has with helping the poor by feeding them. It seems to him they should be fed, ok, but it won’t bring much in the end.

About Bible citations, I don’t think it helps with an agnostic. The discussion started because of Jesus’ saying that there will always be problems on Earth, so

And: I love your nickname

 

[MarcoPG]

…]
*"Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” …]
On the other hand, we have Jesus’ encounter with the tax collector Zacchaeus. After dining with Jesus he says,
*“Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” …]

In both cases Jesus identifies giving sacrificially to the poor with the redemption, not of the recipient, but of the giver. …]**

This is spiritual to material, and that’s what my friend cannot get. As my priest say: Pray and wait tht he has a more mature view of all this.

This I do, but the discussion itself is stuck there. The only thing, I guess, is to wait for him to understand why Love is so that it gives without setting a goal.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hello!

Well, that is the last of my discussions with friends. They point out that Jesus tells his followers that there is poverty etc. and there will be until He comes. So, am I asked, why should I do any of these works of mercy?

I responded because we happen t know it is good! If you are a good person, you do good, if you are a person of faith, you do good for God’s sake, not because it gives you anything, not because you are told to, but because you know it is the right thing.

Alright then, he says: let’s imagine we get to a point that everyone on this earth has what he needs, what do we do of these commands?

As you said, I replied, we won’t be able to make the world totally happy and give it all it needs. And even if we were able to, then what comes? Greed, pride, and so on. So it is not about food and clothes and friendship, as you see if you start looking at it a bit deeper.

Ok, he said, but that sounds to me like there is no end to this, I’d better not start if I know I cannot achieve what I am working for.

After this I just thought to myself that these works are fruits of our fath, good deeds in a non egoistic way, and that it is morally clear to do good, if you have any idea of what the Good may be. But I thought this woudn’t bring much to the very real issue he was talking about.

How would you develop this idea that even if we can’t eradicate poverty, hunger and such completely, it is no excuse not to do something?

Thank you

The fact that there will always be more need than we can alleviate does not mean that we are not responsible for doing as much as we can.

We’re not being measured on an absolute scale (the percentage of poverty we eliminated), we’re being measured on a relative scale (how much we did v. how much we could have done).

 

[Purgatory_Pete]

He woud help his family becaue it is his family. But why should we help people we do not know or even see? Love, but that doesn’t help

But what if the person he phoned was also agnostic, how would he feel about that?

About Bible citations, I don’t think it helps with an agnostic. The discussion started because of Jesus’ saying that there will always be problems on Earth, so

British Dictionary definition for agnostic
n.
“one who professes that the existence of a First Cause and the essential nature of things are not and cannot be known”

If he truly is agnostic, then how can he know that there is no point in helping the poor,
that goes against agnosticism (the nature of things are not and cannot be known)
This means that the nature of the outcome of helping the poor can not be known,(and that is agnostic belief)
yet he claims that there is no point because it wont change the outcome. He is contradicting himself.
and He can’t use what Jesus said as a reason because agnostics
don’t believe in the existence of a first cause (that being the word of God / Jesus).
If agnostics were true to their claims, then wouldn’t they be the first ones helping all others
since they profess that the nature of things is not and cannot be known.
They should be trying to save the world because their agnostic mantra clearly states, that the outcome is unknown,
therefore they are saying that saving the whole world is in fact Possible.

that there will always be problems on Earth, so.

For him to use this as an excuse to not help others is proof that he does not believe in agnosticism.
In fact it means he believes the word of Jesus over agnosticism.

He may at some point try to shift the blame on God. I mostly hear,
“well why doesn’t your almighty God do something to help them”
I respond with “He did do something to help them”.
after a pause they come back with “Oh yeah, what did He do then?”
and I rock their world by saying, “He made YOU.”

And: I love your nickname.

Thanks mate
I say a prayer 5 times a day that releases 1000 souls from Purgatory.
So at the end of every day I have 5000 new friends up there praying
ten fold for my salvation. Add that up over a year my friend and
then you realise how many of the suffering we can help by prayer.

But why should we help people we do not know or even see.

I think the benefit of saving souls in Purgatory will answer that for him.

God Bless You Marco
Pete.:tiphat:

 

[styrgwillidar]

Lot of good answers, I agree with the focus on love. Christ said to love even our enemies. Is it love to stand by and do nothing while our brother is hungry, or naked or ill? Yet we are to Love God above all else. How do we show our love for God? What can we possibly do for Him?

If you’ll recall Christ’s account of the judgement, He indicates being judged for our sins of omission- not commission. He tells the people who are the ‘goats’ that they are being condemned because they did not feed Him when He was hungry, clothe Him when He was naked, tend Him when He was ill etc.

He tells the ‘goats’ that when they refused to do things for those people, they were refusing to do them for Jesus.

 

[MarcoPG]

1. But what if the person he phoned was also agnostic, how would he feel about that?

British Dictionary definition for agnostic
n.
“one who professes that the existence of a First Cause and the essential nature of things are not and cannot be known”

1. If he truly is agnostic, then how can he know that there is no point in helping the poor,
   that goes against agnosticism (the nature of things are not and cannot be known)
   This means that the nature of the outcome of helping the poor can not be known,(and that is agnostic belief)
   yet he claims that there is no point because it wont change the outcome. He is contradicting himself.
   and He can’t use what Jesus said as a reason because agnostics
   don’t believe in the existence of a first cause (that being the word of God / Jesus).
   If agnostics were true to their claims, then wouldn’t they be the first ones helping all others
   since they profess that the nature of things is not and cannot be known.
   They should be trying to save the world because their agnostic mantra clearly states, that the outcome is unknown,
   therefore they are saying that saving the whole world is in fact Possible.
2. For him to use this as an excuse to not help others is proof that he does not believe in agnosticism.
   In fact it means he believes the word of Jesus over agnosticism.

He may at some point try to shift the blame on God. I mostly hear,
“well why doesn’t your almighty God do something to help them”
I respond with “He did do something to help them”.
after a pause they come back with “Oh yeah, what did He do then?”
and I rock their world by saying, “He made YOU.”

Thanks mate
I say a prayer 5 times a day that releases 1000 souls from Purgatory.
So at the end of every day I have 5000 new friends up there praying
ten fold for my salvation. Add that up over a year my friend and
then you realise how many of the suffering we can help by prayer.

I think the benefit of saving souls in Purgatory will answer that for him.

God Bless You Marco
Pete.:tiphat:

1)It is not about one’s beiefs, but whether he knows the person or not; it would seem natural to help our loved ones.
2)Ehm the outcome of helping the poor can be known: poverty won’t end because we help the poor. It is different to say I won’t do anything because I know anyway I won’t achieve my goal.
3) He tries to use my arguments, which is fair. He starts from the verse where Jesus says there will always be poverty, and then he sees how we are to help. So he wants an answer about this. And I have one, Love, which he cannot accept per se. Again, it is not about agnsticism.

 

[Robert_Sock]

“Whoever shuts their ears to the cry of the poor will also cry out and not be answered.”
~ Proverbs 21:13

Ezekiel 16:49
Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

“if you feed those who are hungry and take care of the needs of those who are troubled, then your light will shine in the darkness, and you will be bright like sunshine at noon.” -Isaiah 58:10

“Let no one seek his own interests, but those of his neighbor.” (I Cor. 10:24)

1 John 3:17-18
“If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.”

“Life’s prime needs are water, bread, and clothing, a house, too, for decent privacy.”
-Sirach 29:21

Isaiah 58:7-10

Thus says the Lord:
Share your bread with the hungry,
and shelter the homeless poor,
clothe the man you see to be naked
and do not turn from your own kin.
Then will your light shine like the dawn
and your wound be quickly healed over.

Your integrity will go before you
and the glory of the Lord behind you.
Cry, and the Lord will answer;
call, and he will say, ‘I am here.’

If you do away with the yoke,
the clenched fist, the wicked word,
if you give your bread to the hungry,
and relief to the oppressed,
your light will rise in the darkness,
and your shadows become like noon.

2429 Everyone has the right of economic initiative; everyone should make legitimate use of his talents to contribute to the abundance that will benefit all and to harvest the just fruits of his labor. He should seek to observe regulations issued by legitimate authority for the sake of the common good.

“A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor.”
-Proverbs 22:9

27 He who gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.
-Proverbs 28

4 A beggar’s request do not reject;
do not turn your face away from the poor.
-Sirach 2

Oh, if only a man had a spark of true love in his heart, he would know for certain that all earthly things are full of vanity.
-“The Imitation of Christ,” Book 1, Chapter 15

 

[MarcoPG]

Thank you Robert Sock, but as I say in post n. 8: “About Bible citations, I don’t think it helps with an agnostic. The discussion started because of Jesus’ saying that there will always be problems on Earth, so…”

Agnostic may mean one cannot know, but it still remains that because one cannot know he cannot believe Revelation is possible, because it would mean it is possible to know. So his position is no one knows, included the ones who claim to know. No one knows God, if there is one.

 

[sallybutler]

Hello!

Well, that is the last of my discussions with friends. They point out that Jesus tells his followers that there is poverty etc. and there will be until He comes. So, am I asked, why should I do any of these works of mercy?

I responded because we happen t know it is good! If you are a good person, you do good, if you are a person of faith, you do good for God’s sake, not because it gives you anything, not because you are told to, but because you know it is the right thing.

Alright then, he says: let’s imagine we get to a point that everyone on this earth has what he needs, what do we do of these commands?

As you said, I replied, we won’t be able to make the world totally happy and give it all it needs. And even if we were able to, then what comes? Greed, pride, and so on. So it is not about food and clothes and friendship, as you see if you start looking at it a bit deeper.

Ok, he said, but that sounds to me like there is no end to this, I’d better not start if I know I cannot achieve what I am working for.

After this I just thought to myself that these works are fruits of our fath, good deeds in a non egoistic way, and that it is morally clear to do good, if you have any idea of what the Good may be. But I thought this woudn’t bring much to the very real issue he was talking about.

How would you develop this idea that even if we can’t eradicate poverty, hunger and such completely, it is no excuse not to do something?

Thank you

Does your friend brush his teeth? He is going to get cavities anyway. Does he eat right, try to get enough sleep, take vitamins, etc? He is going to die someday.

The point is not always in the absolute final destination, but in the journey. By brushing his teeth they last longer. By eating right, getting enough sleep, he is better able to enjoy his life until his death.

Helping others is a way to keep our souls in shape, a way to nurish ourselves. By helping others, you grow less self-centered. You make your part of the world a little better, which makes the whole world better.

As the saying goes–as journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. Helping the poor is that beginning step.