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livingwordunity
Guest
Can someone please explain if there is any difference?
Since Pro-Abortion Catholics are technically still Catholics was Hitler also technically a Catholic?
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Catholic80
Guest
Technically, they are supposedly excommunicated.
A priest just recently wrote a letter to Nancy Pelosi telling her that she needed to stop referring to herself as Catholic if she continued with her stance on abortion.
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Gorgias
Guest
Yes – once a Catholic, always a Catholic.
However, it would be quite a stretch to claim that Hitler represented Catholicism (just as it is a stretch to claim that ‘pro-abortion Catholics’ represent Catholicism).
What’s the difference between the two? A ‘pro-abortion Catholic’ might be trying to live out a Catholic life, while struggling with pro-life issues; on the other hand, it would seem that Hitler had no intent of trying to live out his baptismal promises.
However, it would be quite a stretch to claim that Hitler represented Catholicism (just as it is a stretch to claim that ‘pro-abortion Catholics’ represent Catholicism).
What’s the difference between the two? A ‘pro-abortion Catholic’ might be trying to live out a Catholic life, while struggling with pro-life issues; on the other hand, it would seem that Hitler had no intent of trying to live out his baptismal promises.
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Mike_from_NJ
Guest
My understanding is that even if you are excommunicated you remain a Catholic. It is the baptism that is said to make this so.
Not only did Gorgias beat me, but explained it in greater detail
Not only did Gorgias beat me, but explained it in greater detail
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livingwordunity
Guest
Their mantra is, “although I believe that life begins at conception, I think abortion should be legal”. I don’t agree that this is someone “struggling with pro-life issues”. I think it’s them justifying their position by redefining what it means to be, as they like to say, “a Catholic in good standing”.
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JDaniel
Guest
LWU:
Catholics can “self-excommunicate.” Now, what does that mean? Probably that although remaining “Catholic,” they can remove themselves from “communication” with the world Catholic congregation. That means no Holy Communion and an effective removel of oneself from any more graces than what may have already been obtained by the ex-communicant.
I think this is a good question and would look forward to someone with more authority to answer it…
jd
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marymary1975
Guest
I have heard exactly that but I have heard conflicting theories on that sense. I am also interested in seeing the answers.
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edwest2
Guest
Technically. I have read no definite proclamation of excommunication. And I would like authoritative evidence that he was. The difference is understanding statements from priests and others in the Church against the actions of a specific person or group then and now, and a written order of excommunication written by the appropriate authority in the Church.
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CB_Catholic
Guest
This might be helpful in understanding automatic excommunications:
dummies.com/how-to/content/catholicism-excommunication-and-other-penalties.html
Also, the Catholic Encyclopedia has an extensive article on excommunication, but you need to be a PhD or something to understand it.
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Rence
Guest
No, there is no difference. The Church teaches that once a person is Baptized Catholic, and indelible mark is made on their soul by the Sacrament, which makes them Catholic forever. Being excommunicated means someone has done something that has made them not in communion with the Church. That means they can’t have Communion until they reconcile with the Church, sometimes that means going to Confession, and sometimes that means only their Bishop can absolve them, etc. But they are still Catholic. That also means they are responsible for their other Catholic obligations, such as attending weekly Mass, etc. The Church does not teach that someone is no longer Catholic when they separate themselves from the Church, rather they teach that they must get in line with the Church.
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George_Stegmeir
Guest
I think that many of the so-called pro-abortion Catholics dilude themselves about their status in the Church and do attend Mass regularly. This is particularly true of so-called Catholic Politicians who attend Mass only for the benefit of their political careers.
The difference between them and notables such as Hitler, is that in Southern Germany and Austria when Hitler was born, Catholicism was a Cultural thing. There were almost no Protestants in those areas.
Almost everybody except Jews were Baptized in the Catholic Church. The birth certificates of that time had a section to indicate where the Baptism of the infant took place. (I have such a document with my father’s Kingdom of Bavaria’s birth certificate). Childhood Religious instruction was largely done at home by one’s mother with a weekly religion class in the public schools. In those days, there were only 8 grades of manditory education, after which most males began an apprenticeship. Only children with wealthy parents or exceptionally smart students were given access to what we call today High School. Most males did not attend Mass on
Anyway, few males attended Mass on any regular basis after they reached their teen age years and left home. It is known that Hitler no longer attended Mass when he lived in Vienna, and was not a Communicant by the time he entered the German Army in WW I.
And, it is well known today, that during his reign in Europe, he actively tried to destroy the Church. It is only because his Generals in Rome disobeyed his direct orders, that they SS did not take over the Vatican and kidnap or murder Pope Pius XII
So, although according to Catholic teaching he was a Catholic, but in his daily life he was far from being one.
The difference between them and notables such as Hitler, is that in Southern Germany and Austria when Hitler was born, Catholicism was a Cultural thing. There were almost no Protestants in those areas.
Almost everybody except Jews were Baptized in the Catholic Church. The birth certificates of that time had a section to indicate where the Baptism of the infant took place. (I have such a document with my father’s Kingdom of Bavaria’s birth certificate). Childhood Religious instruction was largely done at home by one’s mother with a weekly religion class in the public schools. In those days, there were only 8 grades of manditory education, after which most males began an apprenticeship. Only children with wealthy parents or exceptionally smart students were given access to what we call today High School. Most males did not attend Mass on
Anyway, few males attended Mass on any regular basis after they reached their teen age years and left home. It is known that Hitler no longer attended Mass when he lived in Vienna, and was not a Communicant by the time he entered the German Army in WW I.
And, it is well known today, that during his reign in Europe, he actively tried to destroy the Church. It is only because his Generals in Rome disobeyed his direct orders, that they SS did not take over the Vatican and kidnap or murder Pope Pius XII
So, although according to Catholic teaching he was a Catholic, but in his daily life he was far from being one.
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Cojuanco
Guest
Not really. Hitler was a bad Catholic, as are pro-abortion politicians like Pelosi. Both were baptised, and thus both have an indelible mark imprinted upon their souls.
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catholictiger
Guest
If hitler is baptized the indelible mark on his soul will be there forever.
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Gorgias
Guest
Some might say this. Others might not. I’m not saying that all pro-choice Catholics are trying to come to a faithful understanding of Church teaching, but some might be. I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that all are as intransigent as you paint them out to be…
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livingwordunity
Guest
Thanks for that insight.
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edwest2
Guest
Can you provide a source for the last statement? The SS started as Hitler’s personal bodyguards and later grew to include combat formations. The SD (the SS Security Service) would have removed all Generals who disobeyed Hitler’s orders. Otto Skorzeny, Hitler’s best-known commando, would have finished the job of kidnapping the Pope at the time if others were not so inclined. Hitler primarily sought to remove Catholic political meddling in State affairs. Pope Pius XII sought to do everything he could to protect Catholics, and non-Catholics in Germany and the Greater Reich, including keeping the Party out of Catholic education and helping German Catholics to practice their faith. Whatever one might think of Hitler, the Pope denounced the Nazis on more than one occasion, and Hitler understood the greater problems that would occur in Germany, and the neighboring occupied, allied and unoccupied areas if he were to kidnap the Pope.
Ed
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livingwordunity
Guest
I would agree with you if we were talking about Catholics who simply don’t hold to any position on the subject. This could be because they never gave it any thought. But the thread is about Catholics who actively promote abortion as a “right”. In my personal experience with these kinds of Catholics, they never accept what the Church teaches about abortion but instead insistently attempt to justify their Pro-Abortion position. They not only try to justify their position for themselves, but they work tirelessly to convince other Catholics to ignore what the Catholic Church has to say about it.Some might say this. Others might not. I’m not saying that all pro-choice Catholics are trying to come to a faithful understanding of Church teaching, but some might be. I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that all are as intransigent as you paint them out to be…
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Gorgias
Guest
Sure looks like you’re changing the goalposts again – from “pro-abortion Catholics,” we’ve now moved to “Catholics who actively promote abortion as a ‘right’.” Perhaps this was your intent all along, but it’s not the proposition that you started with.So, now we’ve moved to “pro-abort Catholics whom livingwordunity has met personally”?
(Yeah, I’m teasing you, but it sure seems like we really need to pin down exactly who we’re talking about here…)Some do. But, in my personal experience, there are also Catholics whose formation is largely based on the values of secular society. These Catholics are torn between what they know from secular values and what they see the Church teaching. They are open to a reasonable discussion of what the Church teaches, although they shut down when they’re confronted with a “you’re a sinner who is objectively wrong; the Church is right” presentation of the issue…
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George_Stegmeir
Guest
I cannot cite a specific text for you, but it is fairly well known that there was tremendous emnity between the German Army and the SS and SD, especially in Italy. The German Army far outnumbered the both the SS and SD. When the order came to take over the Vatican, the Allied Armies were within spitting distance of Rome, and most of the SS had evacuated the city. The SD was virtually powerless to act against the army at that time because no one in the army would have cooperated with them. BTW, the orders from Berlin were similar to those for Paris. Hitler wanted Rome destroyed the same way Warsaw was. with no two bricks sticking together.
By the time the German Army evacuated Rome, it was well known to everyone concerned that the Jews were being hidden in every Catholic Institution in Rome, and because the allies were so close, they could do nothing about it. There is a movie about Pope Pius XII that has been shown on EWTN, It handles this subject.
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