since the Bible is the Word of God it is all we need...

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Who speaks with authority for the definition of SS?

And what is the definition again of SS?

And where is this definition found in the Bible?
Taz, since PR and I are basically asking the same thing, I won’t bother repeating this, but I will add one slice to that last question.

Since you said it in your post to me, I need you to give me the exact scripture that has YOUR definition of SS. Otherwise, if you can’t, then you’re adding something to the Bible, thereby falling outside YOUR very definition of SS.
 
The fact that Protestants don’t agree only mean that they aren’t adhering to sola scriptura either, not that sola scriptura isn’t Biblically-based. For example, there are Lutherans who “claim” to be sola scriptura, yet they baptize babies. Obviously they are not sola scriptura. Therefore, their “definition” of it isn’t accurate.
Perhaps you don’t see the irony here, taz, but it’s pretty clear. You seem to be taking on the very role to which you object to in the Catholic Church.

You are declaring yourself and your definition to be correct, and stating that others cannot divorce themselves from your definition.

And yet when the Church does this, you bristle and profess, “Each of us is quite capable of deciding for ourselves. We don’t need no magisterium, thank you very much!”

And yet, here you are professing, in essence, to be the magisterium which defines what SS is.

#irony
 
" don’t. The Word of God does. If a person supports same sex marriage & abortion, are they sola scriptura just because they claim to be? No. Why? Because sola scriptura doesn’t support these “beliefs.” That’s how.

This “source” is called the Bible.Yet you have yet to supply a specific scripture where the Bible lays claim to any such final, ultimate, and self interpreting authority. Where exactly is that found in your Bible?
So, then mankind can determine on their own what “is” & what “is not” Inspired without guidance of the Holy Spirit helping them to discern
the godly qualifications for Inspiration?No one here has asserted this straw man argument, though I’m sure you wish we would.

The Catholic Church has always taught (and always will) that Christ keeps his promise in Matthew 28:20 which, along with John 16:13 makes it very plain that He will never abandon the church that He founded to allow error. The promise is to His church and assures the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
No, it requires godly discernment to realize that in order for something to be “God-breathed” it can’t contain errors or contradictions, otherwise it’s like saying GOD can be in error & contradict Himself.
Another straw man argument since no one here has asserted this, nor is it a Catholic teaching…
The fact that the Jews weren’t “universal” in what was, and was not, Scripture, doesn’t change the fact that Jesus
did** (Luke 27:44-45**), & the fact that Jesus refers to Scripture as “the Law & the Prophets,” which the Pharisees would have understood that to mean the EXACT SAME writings that are in the OT Protestant canon today.Fallacious logic argument since by that definition the Psalms and all wisdom writings in the OT should not be considered canon. Yet I know of no Christian community that would assert such a thing even as the Catholic Church does not.
Jesus Christ (Luke 27:44-45
)Except that there is no such passage, since Luke’s Gospel only has 24 chapters. 😃
 
Taz, since PR and I are basically asking the same thing, I won’t bother repeating this, but I will add one slice to that last question.

Since you said it in your post to me, I need you to give me the exact scripture that has YOUR definition of SS. Otherwise, if you can’t, then you’re adding something to the Bible, thereby falling outside YOUR very definition of SS.
oops sorry just read moderator post. I erased my ss definition
 
How about this :: SS must mean you curl up in a ball with your bible and wait for the second coming . Don’t need parents, teachers, pastors/presbyters, church, tradition, history …hopefully not forgetting what else you don’t need…I mean “alone” is “alone”…
How about we answer this bigger question first, instead of addressing the multiple (and often contrary) definitions of SS: who gets to define SS?

IOW: Who do we Catholics look to for the correct definition of SS?
 
How about we answer this bigger question first, instead of addressing the multiple (and often contrary) definitions of SS: who gets to define SS?

IOW: Who do we Catholics look to for the correct definition of SS?
WOW you are fast. I edited that post out . Not sure but has topic changed per moderator post ?
 
How about we answer this bigger question first, instead of addressing the multiple (and often contrary) definitions of SS: who gets to define SS?

IOW: Who do we Catholics look to for the correct definition of SS?
JonC
 
WOW you are fast. I edited that post out . Not sure but has topic changed per moderator post ?
No, ben. The topic is still SS and the Bible being “all we need”.

The mod was saying another thread has been started regarding where the Bible came from, arguing that Protestants really must give their tacit submission to the CC each and every time they quote from the NT…for they would not know what belongs in there, save for giving their obedience to the CC’s decision. That is what is being discussed in another thread.

So could you answer the question, please, as to who has the authority to define SS?

And where does this authority come from?
 
No, ben. The topic is still SS and the Bible being “all we need”.

The mod was saying another thread has been started regarding where the Bible came from, arguing that Protestants really must give their tacit submission to the CC each and every time they quote from the NT…for they would not know what belongs in there, save for giving their obedience to the CC’s decision. That is what is being discussed in another thread.

So could you answer the question, please, as to who has the authority to define SS?

And where does this authority come from?
Thanks for the clarification.
The last question is easy. All authority comes from God.
Not sure on the first question, but for sure God help us rightly divide the Word of God, written or otherwise.
 
You can’t really claim that a belief is true, if you have no authoritative way of defining it, can you?
Can you define/explain the role of councils (concilarism) and Papal office and Sacred scripture thru out the ages in formation of authoritative Sacred Tradition ?

Was there always only one definition of "final authority’ in CC’s supposed 2000 year history ?
 
Thanks for the clarification.
The last question is easy. All authority comes from God.
Not sure on the first question, but for sure God help us rightly divide the Word of God, written or otherwise.
Amen. All authority comes from God. The second part of your response ties in directly to the question I asked, that you just quoted:
from ahs: “You can’t really claim that a belief is true, if you have no authoritative way of defining it, can you?”
God [the Holy Spirit] can and does guide us in helping us understand the Word. The problem is that we often don’t understand what He’s trying to tell us. Peter warns us about this very thing. So, knowing that you and I are both fallible interpreters of the Word, you and I can’t know for sure if we are actually understanding the Word correctly, and can even misunderstand the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

That either matters, or it doesn’t. I think it matters.

Now, since you have no way of knowing with infallible assurance whether you are right, you can’t very well authoritatively define anything, can you? No, you can’t. And if you can’t authoritatively define anything, you can’t really claim any belief as “true” (such as the “correct” understanding of SS), can you?
Can you define/explain the role of councils (concilarism) and Papal office and Sacred scripture thru out the ages in formation of authoritative Sacred Tradition ?

Was there always only one definition of "final authority’ in CC’s supposed 2000 year history ?
Sure, we can address those off-topic questions in another thread where they will be on-topic. In the meantime, how about let’s stick to the topic, and address the question that you, for some reason, are not answering:
You’re not answering the question, ben.

Who has the authority to define SS?
 
Thetazlord.

You said:
Please show me a verse where He appeals to “the doctrines the precepts of men” that are NOT found in the OT Scriptures. (Oh, wait! He rebuked that)
This is a straw man thetazlord.

I NEVER said:

Jesus appeals to “the doctrines the precepts of men”.

“The elders” are TRANSGRESSING the commandment of God. (Just like you are transgressing the commandment of God when you invent sola Scriptura.)

You said:
He rebuked the Pharisees by saying, “Why do you transgress the commandments of God for the sake of your traditions?”
But this ignores the fact that there are GOD’S Traditions that exist. You already admitted 2nd Thessalonians 2:15 was one of them (although you are going to deny the explicit ORAL command–but we’ll get to that later).

This is the bait and switch or fallacy of equivocation routine again.

You point out Jesus specifically talking about traditions that transgress God’s commandments and then in the very next sentence you INVENT something that isn’t stated in Scripture . . .
So, by ADDING their “Sacred Traditions” that weren’t found in Inspired Scripture,
You go from condemning traditions that nullify the commandments of God (I agree and is Scriptural) to . . . .
condemning ALL Traditions (I disagree with your assertion and it is UNScriptural), or at least ALL oral Traditions. And I am saying you cannot support that Scripturally.

As I also implied: You are using this fallacy of equivocation on your definition of sola Scriptura too.

Here is how I said it.
(“Oh Yeah. Jesus appeals to Scripture so it MUST mean Scripture ALONE” type of reasoning)
And that is EXACTLY what you are doing thetazlord. And nobody here is buying it.

**Sola Scriptura is a tradition of men that makes void the Commandments of God. **
 
Was it post 50 ? Sounded good to me.(thetazlord def)
So it “sounded good to you?” That’s fine, but what about the person who reads that definition, and says “Nahhh, I’d change it to say …”

Who are we Catholics supposed to believe?

Where is the authoritative non-Catholic source that says “Taz’s definition of SS is absolute and above all reproach, therefore it is right”?

By what authority do you or Taz have to define SS?

PR and I have asked these questions on this thread at least 6 or 7 different times combined, and we have yet to get an answer, so please, Ben Hur, circle the chariot back around and answer our questions!
 
So it “sounded good to you?” That’s fine, but what about the person who reads that definition, and says “Nahhh, I’d change it to say …”

Who are we Catholics supposed to believe?

Where is the authoritative non-Catholic source that says “Taz’s definition of SS is absolute and above all reproach, therefore it is right”?

By what authority do you or Taz have to define SS?

PR and I have asked these questions on this thread at least 6 or 7 different times combined, and we have yet to get an answer, so please, Ben Hur, circle the chariot back around and answer our questions!
Yes you want a definite authoritative mechanism and preferably visible I presume, like a pope ,or a council even a " magisterium. As you know P’s don,t have a pope. Many do have a magisterium, or teaching hierarchy or list of “confessions”. Some churches have bishops and of course pastors who have teaching authority for the congregation

Having said all that,Christ does give authority to or the ability to discern certain things to individuals as well as offices. It is not either or authority but unison as both and. The pastor does not teach something That I also do not have the authority to say amen to.

Taz has the authority to define SS and I am sure he is backed up by a pastor or even history or some “confessions of faith” articles, just as you have authority to speak what your mind as it is what your church teaches.

So there is visible authority and invisible authority via the Holy Spirit, available to all members of the Body.
 
The problem is that if you lived 2,000 years ago, & all I had today was an Inspired book about you that said, “Gorgias never eats hamburgers while he/she sleeps.” Although it may be “inferred” that you eat hamburgers while you’re awake, there is no real way to know for sure that you indeed eat hamburgers.
Agreed. Yet, you’re not saying “traditions of men may be true” – you’re making the opposite unfounded assertion: “traditions of men are bad”. By your own logic, you cannot in good faith make the claim you’re making. 😉
it would be incorrect for me to make that assumption, without Scriptural evidence
Precisely. And, I’ve shown examples of Scriptural evidence that show that Jesus accepted various traditions of men – the two easiest examples to demonstrate, of course, being that Jesus accepted the tradition to have a wedding ceremony and party (which He attended) and the tradition of having synagogue services on the Sabbath. Neither are commanded by Scripture, and Jesus participated in both. Now… neither of these traditions “nullify the word of God”, which is what Jesus was railing about, and so this is the reason He participated in them. But, if you want to make the assertion that you do – against all ‘traditions of men’ – you cannot make that claim, given the witness of Scripture. In other words, Sola Scriptura itself refutes Sola Scriptura… 🤷
Attending a wedding ceremony doesn’t “ADD” to Scripture in the same way “ADDING” a man-made tradition that’s not found in Inspired Scipture does, which is what we’re discussing - extra-biblical “traditions” being just as “Inspired” as God-breathed Scripture.
Hmm… that seems to be a departure from your earlier assertion – that is, it seemed to me that you were saying that the traditions of men were to be eschewed because they were non-Scriptural. Now, you seem to be backing away from that statement and saying that ‘traditions of men’ are ok unless they’re held at the level of ‘inspired Scripture’. Did I, perhaps, misunderstand you originally?

In any case, I think I need to point you again to Matthew 28: Jesus commanded the apostles to “teach them to observe all I commanded you.” There’s no assertion anywhere that “all I commanded you” is written down, in its entirety, in the Gospels. In fact, in the Gospel of John, he twice notes that Jesus said and did much more than what was recorded in Scripture. In other words, a logical conclusion follows: if Jesus did and said more than what was recorded, and Jesus commanded the apostles to teach all he said, then the belief that Christians may only teach what was recorded necessarily disobeys the command of Christ.
Remember, that is what the Pharisees were rebuking Jesus’ disciples of in Matthew Ch.15. The “Sacred Traditions” of the Pharisees that were not found in the OT - in their mind - were no different than Inspired Scripture.
No, that’s not at all what is going on. Please find a citation for me, from the Gospels, in which the Pharisees make the assertion that their traditions “were no different than inspired Scripture”. (It just isn’t in there.)

Rather, the Pharisees were saying that their traditions were binding, just as any authority says their rules are binding. Jesus, in fact, affirms this in Matthew chapter 23: “do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you.” Jesus’ problem isn’t with their authority, but with the ways that they broke the Commandments that they were supposed to uphold. Jesus’ apostles broke tradition – but the Pharisees transgressed the Fourth Commandment, and Jesus held them to account for that transgression!

This isn’t a proof of SS – it’s a call to accountability for religious leaders!
The “Sacred Tradition” of ritualistic washing of hands before meals wasn’t something that was commanded in OT Scripture for Jews to do - but the Pharisees still commanded it. If you notice, Jesus command [sic] to His disciples, “you know, even though it’s not in the OT Scriptures, we really should do it, because it’s the ‘Sacred Tradition’ of the Pharisees.” Rather, He rebuked the Pharisees by saying, “Why do you transgress the commandments of God for the sake of your traditions?”
You’re missing the point there… do you recognize this? You wanted to say, I think, that Jesus didn’t command them ‘we should do it’ … but that’s precisely what he did command (again, Mt 23:2). The rebuke doesn’t address the question of hand-washing… 😉
So, by ADDING their “Sacred Traditions” that weren’t found in Inspired Scripture, Jesus not only didn’t Jesus elevate their “Sacred Traditions” to the level of OT Scripture, but He also equated ADDING their “tradition” with “transgressing the commandments of God.”
Ouch. No, you really need to re-read Mt 15. Hand-washing is abandoned, immediately, as an item of concern. In its place, Jesus picks one tradition – a tradition that is problematic – and rails against it. You’ve extrapolated to include all traditions, and that’s a glaring logical error – especially when Jesus participates in Jewish traditions and affirms the Pharisees’ authority to direct the actions of Jews. I’m sorry, but your assertions fail, massively… :sad_yes:
The problem is that there is no way of knowing for sure that these extra-scriptural “Sacred Traditions” were actually “commanded” by Christ & His disciples to be taught to the Church.
I see. So, you trust that, although Jesus didn’t say “write a book”, his apostles are trustworthy in writing down some things He said; meantime, even though He did say “teach all the things I taught”, his apostles aren’t trustworthy in teaching them? Jesus’ protection extended to what He didn’t say, but doesn’t extend to what He did command? Wow. :eek:
 
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