since the Bible is the Word of God it is all we need...

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Originally Posted by thetazlord forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Because if I were to take it on what “you” are saying, then I’d be accepting a Scriptural contradiction, which is impossible, since the Bible is the Word of God. Therefore, the interpretation must be incorrect.
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This is your interpretation based upon your adherence to the error  of Sola Scriptura which itself has no basis in the Word of God,  therefore violates its own premise and by its own standards cannot be a  correct doctrine.
Your inability to accept and willingness to ignore the vast amount of early church writings by Christians who were disciples of the apostles themselves completely cripples your interpretations.
 
I don’t believe that n-C adherents of this error can make their case from the Bible…not even ours which will allow them 7 more books.🙂
 
If Jesus and the Apostles passed out Bibles and said that it was all we need, then I would be a sola scriptura kind of guy. But since He came and established the Church and the Faith with a specific hierarchy, and the Bible is a product from that establishment, then it only makes sense to follow that route rather than the Bible “alone”, AKA “my interpretation of the Bible while claiming its the Holy Spirit that revealed the interpretation to me”. If all these sola scriptura folks “led by the Holy Spirit” were of one accord and believed the same thing on important vital doctrine, then I would find that convincing in many ways, but since all these denominations have their own dime a dozen doctrines, then that confusion continues to convince me that I was right when I parted ways with Protestantism.
 
For my column in our KofC news letter I drew from a rabbi’s explanation of why Judaism needs both the Written Torah [Scripture] and the Oral Torah [Tradition]:

Judaism has a similar teaching [What is the Oral Torah?, by Aish HaTorah’s Discovery Seminar]. [Note that the Torah is written scripture; the Talmud contains those portions of the Oral Torah that were written down after the destruction of the Temple; other portions of tradition remain unwritten.] The Oral Torah preceded the giving of the written Bible. When the Jewish people stood at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago, God communicated the 613 commandments, along with a detailed, practical explanation of how to fulfill them. At that point in time, the teachings were entirely oral. Just prior to his death, forty years later, Moses wrote the scroll of the written Torah ( the Five Books of Moses). Similarly, the New Testament was entirely oral at first. Then portions were set down in the Gospels and Epistles, but there is much more.
He illustrates the need for oral tradition with the story of one who applied for a job at a prestigious investment banking firm. On his resume he claimed to have graduated from Harvard Business School, but it admits that he never attended classes there. He just read the lecture notes taken by his roommate who did. Needless to say, the interviewer was not impressed and he didn’t get the job.
He further comments: *If the entire Torah would have been given in writing, everyone would be able to interpret it as he desired. This would lead to division and discord among people who followed the Torah in different ways. The Oral Torah, on the other hand, would require a central authority to preserve it, thus assuring the unity of Israel… *That has a familiar ring.
 
Ah the arguments for and against sola scripture, what a wonderous deceiving and deception of both sides.

One side justifies their own theology because there is more to life then scripture, the other side justifies its position because the only thing they know about the God of Israel is what the bible says, but both are blind and incorrect simply by virtue of participating in the usual’s of the arguments.

The scriptures are a documentation of a people’s relationship with the Lord their God, known as YHWH Elohim (LORD, Creator and Judge). And is trusted to be an accurate witness of the same. If someone goes on about inspired by God they don’t know that I’ve just said they were, and don’t know the God of Israel in the first place.

The true interpretation of scripture is Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ is the true fulfillment of scripture (Torah and Prophets) according to the will and satisfaction of God the Father who is in Heaven. It’s not about anything else. Therefore what men think of what scripture means is irrelevant to God, (theology). If one doesn’t have a relationship with God through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, then scripture means nothing other than to condemn others with it (sola scripturists). If anyone seeks to make it about anything else from anything else is incorrect about scripture and what is meant therein. Since scripture is about God’s relationship between Him and man and the sons of man, then it should easily be agreed that Jesus is the fulfillment of that relationship considering Jesus (the Word of God made flesh) is the only Way to have a relationship with God, and has always been the only Way to have a relationship with the Creator and Judge.
 
Ah the arguments for and against sola scripture, what a wonderous deceiving and deception of both sides.

One side justifies their own theology because there is more to life then scripture, the other side justifies its position because the only thing they know about the God of Israel is what the bible says, but both are blind and incorrect simply by virtue of participating in the usual’s of the arguments.

The scriptures are a documentation of a people’s relationship with the Lord their God, known as YHWH Elohim (LORD, Creator and Judge). And is trusted to be an accurate witness of the same. If someone goes on about inspired by God they don’t know that I’ve just said they were, and don’t know the God of Israel in the first place.

The true interpretation of scripture is Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ is the true fulfillment of scripture (Torah and Prophets) according to the will and satisfaction of God the Father who is in Heaven. It’s not about anything else. Therefore what men think of what scripture means is irrelevant to God, (theology). If one doesn’t have a relationship with God through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, then scripture means nothing other than to condemn others with it (sola scripturists). If anyone seeks to make it about anything else from anything else is incorrect about scripture and what is meant therein. Since scripture is about God’s relationship between Him and man and the sons of man, then it should easily be agreed that Jesus is the fulfillment of that relationship considering Jesus (the Word of God made flesh) is the only Way to have a relationship with God, and has always been the only Way to have a relationship with the Creator and Judge.
This is pretty much a prize winning example of what this thread is about. You seem to think that this interpretation sums up the whole issue, but again…this is very subjective and of course not shared with all other “Bible only” Christians.

No one is talking here about theology, though it is inescapable eventually, but the real problem is that many n-Cs believe that anyone can pick up a Bible and read it and rightly handle the word of truth but the wide diversity of interpretations and divisions among n-Cs flies in the face of that idea based upon 1st Corinthians 14:33. Moreover, there is no scripture at all where it lays claim to any such final and ultimate authority and that being the case, the very doctrine violates its own premise and so, by its own standards, cannot be correct Biblical belief.🤷
 
This is pretty much a prize winning example of what this thread is about. You seem to think that this interpretation sums up the whole issue, but again…this is very subjective and of course not shared with all other “Bible only” Christians.

No one is talking here about theology, though it is inescapable eventually, but the real problem is that many n-Cs believe that anyone can pick up a Bible and read it and rightly handle the word of truth but the wide diversity of interpretations and divisions among n-Cs flies in the face of that idea based upon 1st Corinthians 14:33. Moreover, there is no scripture at all where it lays claim to any such final and ultimate authority and that being the case, the very doctrine violates its own premise and so, by its own standards, cannot be correct Biblical belief.
If you mean that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the scriptures therefore would have to be the interpretation thereof by default, should there be need for a interpretation, then yes. Jesus Christ the Son of God, Word of God made flesh is exactly all that the bible is about. If you notice, God the Father has no other concern then the fulfillment of His Word in Heaven and in earth. Because He being good knows that His Word is good and the fulfillment thereof is good for His creation, even in the flesh, as in the Son of man, which is made of earth.

You’re going have to explain the rest of your statements here if you want a response, it seems to be a bit muddy.
 
If you mean that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the scriptures therefore would have to be the interpretation thereof by default, should there be need for a interpretation, then yes. Jesus Christ the Son of God, Word of God made flesh is exactly all that the bible is about. If you notice, God the Father has no other concern then the fulfillment of His Word in Heaven and in earth. Because He being good knows that His Word is good and the fulfillment thereof is good for His creation, even in the flesh, as in the Son of man, which is made of earth.

You’re going have to explain the rest of your statements here if you want a response, it seems to be a bit muddy.
So you’re telling us that the Bible and Jesus Christ are synonymous?
 
So you’re telling us that the Bible and Jesus Christ are synonymous?
You know as well as I do that the one (scripture) is a witness to us of the other (Jesus Christ) Jesus says as much, but I don’t remember where at this time. It seems sinister that you would seek an answer otherwise.

It’s not complicated, once A&E lost the life that God gave them, all that is to be done is the restoration of that same life, according to God’s satisfaction. So Jesus fulfilled and is the fulfillment of scripture, and that which is contrary to scripture has no real business in the church of any denomination, unless it’s to lead away from Christ, or distract from the Christian’s fulfillment in Christ.
 
So Jesus fulfilled and is the fulfillment of scripture, and that which is contrary to scripture has no real business in the church of any denomination, unless it’s to lead away from Christ, or distract from the Christian’s fulfillment in Christ.
I will agree with this.

However, Jesus evidently intended on establishing a church (Matthew 16:18), and whether the church should believe only in the Bible or not is the real issue here. Paul commended the Corinthians for listening maintaining the traditions he gave them, and told the Thessalonians to do the same (1 Corinthians 11:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6). So, when the scriptures hint that there is more to Christianity than just the scriptures, what are we to do?

Interestingly, some words of Jesus found their way into the Bible, not directly, but through a quote from a non-Biblical source (Acts 20:35).

It must be remembered that the writing of the books comprising the New Testament was not completed until about 70 years after Christ’s death, and that Testament’s canon was not established until the 4th century. We wouldn’t even have names for the gospel writers if it wasn’t for tradition.
 
D_Martin #5
Therefore what men think of what scripture means is irrelevant to God
This means that God doesn’t care whether Scripture is interpreted correctly or not, which is false. That is precisely why He entrusted that great work to His Church – of writing, and of interpreting by teaching only truth.
The true interpretation of scripture is Jesus Christ…
This means nothing, as the Truth who is Jesus the Christ did not give us the Sacred Scriptures but entrusted that reality to the Catholic Church which He founded on St Peter as His Chief Vicar and the Apostles, and She has taught us what writings are inspired by God and what are not, and so She has given us the complete Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God, no more no less.

It is easy for the seeker to find:
1 Cor 1:10: I urge you brothers, in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jn 4:6).

“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14). Further, “For there will come a time when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but having itching ears, will heap up to themselves teachers according to their lusts. And they will turn away their hearing from the truth and turn aside rather to fables.” (2 Tim 4:3).

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." (2 Thess 2:15).

“Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard this rich trust with the help of the Holy Spirit that dwells within us.” (2 Tim 1:13-14). Again St Paul writes: “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Tim 2:2).

In Colossians 2: 4-23, St Paul calls on his flock to follow Christ “as you were taught” and warns against merely “human precepts and teachings.”
 
I will agree with this.

However, Jesus evidently intended on establishing a church (Matthew 16:18), and whether the church should believe only in the Bible or not is the real issue here. Paul commended the Corinthians for listening maintaining the traditions he gave them, and told the Thessalonians to do the same (1 Corinthians 11:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6). So, when the scriptures hint that there is more to Christianity than just the scriptures, what are we to do?

Interestingly, some words of Jesus found their way into the Bible, not directly, but through a quote from a non-Biblical source (Acts 20:35).

It must be remembered that the writing of the books comprising the New Testament was not completed until about 70 years after Christ’s death, and that Testament’s canon was not established until the 4th century. We wouldn’t even have names for the gospel writers if it wasn’t for tradition.
Believing in the bible isn’t a real issue, it’s what a person, groups of people, or in this case, a church wants to agree as what place the bible has in their own agendas. The usual case of men seeking the right to judge what is good for themselves.

Jesus being the Word of God in the Son of man supercedes the law or “Torah” because He being the Word of God, that is LORD, gave the law to Moses. But if what Jesus did and said was contrary to the Torah then He wouldn’t have been the Christ we now believe in, because the Torah is a witness to who and what He is, and is of the same. If the scriptures come by man’s relationship with God through His Word then if Jesus comes then it’s a fulfillment of what God has already said and this case what the Lord has already said. Hence He said and did.

Therefore since a Christian is to have fulfillment of the Life Christ has and has granted us, it would have to be according to the same as Jesus the Christ which is the fulfillment of what He said to men He entrusted.

As far as tradition, I do believe the Lord Jesus gave the authorities greif over that subject: Mt:15:2: Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mt:15:6: And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mk:7:3: For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
Mk:7:5: Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mk:7:8: For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mk:7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mk:7:13: Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Also I would point out:

23: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

This not to go on about the Catholic church is this or that or something like that, it’s to point out what value tradition has in the sight and Judgement of the Lord. If one’s comfort is to practice as and be a Catholic or Mormon or any other denomination with their own traditions fine, but the Lord warns that those traditions have no bearing on what He says. No matter your own habit and traditions and doings, one cannot change what the bible says or means because it is intended for the proving of such things. So that they are not contrary to the Ways of the Lord.

So if you are looking to justify tradition forget it. Beside what is tradition but more rules to follow, and what is the effectiveness of a tradition unless a group of people like maybe a nation agrees to do a certain thing in the same circumstances. Like fireworks on the fourth of July, or a star or angel on top of a Christmas tree? And who maintains tradition, and according to whose memory? So it’s a rule depending on its importance followed and taught, according to who is entrusted with the accuracy of that same rule. Until someone writes in down and it is maintained that way.

And back then before beginning of the catholic church, how would one verify that some one was peaching and teaching the fulfillment of God’s Word in Christ? Could it have been signs and wonders? Could it have been copies of the Torah and other documents that are now OT? Maybe similar to the days of the Book of Judges.
 
This not to go on about the Catholic church is this or that or something like that, it’s to point out what value tradition has in the sight and Judgement of the Lord. If one’s comfort is to practice as and be a Catholic or Mormon or any other denomination with their own traditions fine, but the Lord warns that those traditions have no bearing on what He says. No matter your own habit and traditions and doings, one cannot change what the bible says or means because it is intended for the proving of such things. So that they are not contrary to the Ways of the Lord.

So if you are looking to justify tradition forget it. Beside what is tradition but more rules to follow, and what is the effectiveness of a tradition unless a group of people like maybe a nation agrees to do a certain thing in the same circumstances. Like fireworks on the fourth of July, or a star or angel on top of a Christmas tree? And who maintains tradition, and according to whose memory? So it’s a rule depending on its importance followed and taught, according to who is entrusted with the accuracy of that same rule. Until someone writes in down and it is maintained that way.

And back then before beginning of the catholic church, how would one verify that some one was peaching and teaching the fulfillment of God’s Word in Christ? Could it have been signs and wonders? Could it have been copies of the Torah and other documents that are now OT? Maybe similar to the days of the Book of Judges.
Let’s not take the Lord’s words out of context, now. In the examples you mentioned, Jesus is condemning the traditions of the Jewish leaders because they were more concerned with these traditions than they were with the laws of God. Catholic Tradition enables the Church to more fully live out the Christian life, as well as to interpret Scripture, because “no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20).

If you say that I’m looking to justify tradition, it’s exactly what I’m doing. You haven’t mentioned the verses I cited where Paul supports tradition. Do you believe in the inspiration of Paul’s epistles?

And when exactly was this time period after Christ and before the Catholic Church?
 
D_Martin #5
Therefore what men think of what scripture means is irrelevant to God

This means that God doesn’t care whether Scripture is interpreted correctly or not, which is false. That is precisely why He entrusted that great work to His Church – of writing, and of interpreting by teaching only truth.
This is a perfect example of the point I was making. Thanks for proving why mankind is not to be entrusted with interpretations. You toke a few words written, out of context and said they meant something other than what was meant in context.
This means nothing, as the Truth who is Jesus the Christ did not give us the Sacred Scriptures but entrusted that reality to the Catholic Church which He founded on St Peter as His Chief Vicar and the Apostles, and She has taught us what writings are inspired by God and what are not, and so She has given us the complete Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God, no more no less.
Your lack of knowledge on the subject is astounding, the OT is way before the Catholic church was. Are you in reality? And the OT was maintained by the Hebrews who are God’s People who served in that capacity in the Lord their God’s sight at least as far back as days of Moses? So the Catholic church isn’t necessary for the continuance of the OT was it?
 
D Martin fails to understand that it is only from Christ’s Catholic Church that anyone knows what is “the Word of God” as She, and no other, has defined and authorized that the Sacred Scriptures consist of 46 books in the O.T. and 27 books in the N.T., no more, no less. The Christ wrote nothing for us.

That is why he is blind to the reality that Christ founded His Catholic Church on St Peter as head of and with the other Apostles, for the Christ wrote nothing but gave us His Church to teach, rule and sanctify:

**All four promises to Peter alone: **
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later also to the Twelve].

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

“For it is not only Catholics or Catholicism or Christians who benefit from the access they have to truth in a world that is groping for the truth and wandering in uncertainty. But the whole human race benefits from the continued presence on earth of Christ, who is the Truth, teaching the truth through His Church, and thus leading mankind back to the God from whom it came and from whom it was made.” The Teaching Church In Our Time, in *How Infallible Is The Teaching Church?, *Daughters of St Paul, 1978, p 119-120].
 
The world of Protestantism has many flavors, and many Protestants have no idea that they are a branch of a branch of a branch of the groups who broke away from the original Church established by Christ. If some of these people would have said these things to the Church Fathers then the Fathers would have wondered what planet they came from. This “me and Jesus only” mantality wrapped up in a mass of relativism and confusion is so unbiblical and has no relation whatsoever to what the Early Christian Church believed. If people would take the time to study the writings of the New Testament authors and then the writings of their contemporaries and those who were either appointed by the Apostles to be bishops or other men who were Christians within their generation or right after, then they would see that their beliefs do not resemble these reinvented wheels and newly invented doctrines among non-Catholics.
 
“For it is not only Catholics or Catholicism or Christians who benefit from the access they have to truth in a world that is groping for the truth and wandering in uncertainty. But the whole human race benefits from the continued presence on earth of Christ, who is the Truth, teaching the truth through His Church, and thus leading mankind back to the God from whom it came and from whom it was made.” The Teaching Church In Our Time, in *How Infallible Is The Teaching Church?, *Daughters of St Paul, 1978, p 119-120].
I don’t know what band you are marching to, but it sure sings of self importance. No different then the attitudes of the Pharisee and the Sadducees in the Lord’s day. The Pharisees claimed to be sons of Abraham and that got them nowhere with the Lord. Your song is, if they’re not Catholic like you, then they are lesser beings, and only Catholic may have salvation. Since when are you God’s Judge?
 
The world of Protestantism has many flavors, and many Protestants have no idea that they are a branch of a branch of a branch of the groups who broke away from the original Church established by Christ. If some of these people would have said these things to the Church Fathers then the Fathers would have wondered what planet they came from. This “me and Jesus only” mantality wrapped up in a mass of relativism and confusion is so unbiblical and has no relation whatsoever to what the Early Christian Church believed. If people would take the time to study the writings of the New Testament authors and then the writings of their contemporaries and those who were either appointed by the Apostles to be bishops or other men who were Christians within their generation or right after, then they would see that their beliefs do not resemble these reinvented wheels and newly invented doctrines among non-Catholics.
Like what?
 
D Martin #17
only Catholic may have salvation
False, and just as false as “Therefore what men think of what scripture means is irrelevant to God”, which is precisely why He gave us His Catholic Church which has the fullness of Truth.

St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!

That is precisely why Jesus commanded “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).

The false accusation that the Catholic Church teaches that “only Catholics can be saved” is seen for the grave error that it is:
The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of His Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.” (Saint John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio, 1990, 10)
 
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