since the Bible is the Word of God it is all we need...

[benhur]

The Church is God-breathed, and is the pillar and foundation of the truth. It also will never fail and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Those are direct promises of God.

You ignore them.

Similar promise were made in OT. They had “differences” .They were allowed. Don’t think they regarded a particular view to be equal authority to that which they interpret from(His Word ,written or prophetic/oral). Don’t think the Talmud (book of interpretations for teaching purpose as part of magisterium /catechism) was thought to be God breathed as much, as much as or equal to, the Torah and other Writ.

The old salvation “religion” of Judaism was not infallible in it’s teachings, yet the gates of hell did not prevail against her mission . She performed perfectly , and delivered salvation to the whole world thru Christ.

Guess what, the Catholic church can be wrong, even the O’s and P’s , on some doctrines, practices and that does not mean, does not mean, Hell has prevailed or the Lord has failed on His promise. His promise to deliver a faithful Bride to Himself shall be fulfilled perfectly in the end.

To be guided into all truth means you put forth the Gospel, put forth Christ . It does not mean a church can’t add/detract wrong variations of that, much as did the OT Judaism.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

Similar promise were made in OT. They had “differences” .They were allowed. Don’t think they regarded a particular view to be equal authority to that which they interpret from(His Word ,written or prophetic/oral). Don’t think the Talmud (book of interpretations for teaching purpose as part of magisterium /catechism) was thought to be God breathed as much, as much as or equal to, the Torah and other Writ.

The old salvation “religion” of Judaism was not infallible in it’s teachings, yet the gates of hell did not prevail against her mission . She performed perfectly , and delivered salvation to the whole world thru Christ.

Guess what, the Catholic church can be wrong, even the O’s and P’s , on some doctrines, practices and that does not mean, does not mean, Hell has prevailed or the Lord has failed on His promise. His promise to deliver a faithful Bride to Himself shall be fulfilled perfectly in the end.

To be guided into all truth means you put forth the Gospel, put forth Christ . It does not mean a church can’t add/detract wrong variations of that, much as did the OT Judaism.

You may be interested in these links:

catholic365.com/article/827/while-the-king-is-away-the-pope-shall-stay-why-the-papacy-just-makes-sense.html

catholic365.com/article/883/understanding-peter-and-the-keys.html

 

[ShanPO]

I am still very curious as to how you know this is what the Scriptures means regarding this Bible verse or any Bible verse when Jesus said in Matthew 18 to take issues to the Church plus Scripture passage of 1 Timothy 3:18 that says the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Where do you go to settle disputes over scripture when you do not have a Church to go to settle those disputes.

There are many protestant churches that believe baptism is required for salvation and it must be water baptism, even if you have to dig a well. There are many protestant churches that believe an infant must be baptized and others that say it must be an adult, others require immersion, others allow sprinkling and pouring of water. How do you know which one is right when you do not have a church as your pillar and foundation of truth?

How do you know that your interpretation of Scripture is right and they are wrong when each are relying on Sola Scriptura and your own interpretation thereof or the interpretation of the pastor.

I’ve asked this several times, and have never gotten an answer. Maybe you’ll get one.

 

[Magdalena59]

I’ve asked this several times, and have never gotten an answer. Maybe you’ll get one.

I have too. I keep asking it and it keeps getting ignored.

 

[Magdalena59]

Bless you ,you nicely keep exhorting me to your faith.

I do not see a difference in OT and NT as far as dynamic of free will and the need for divine regeneration/enlightenment and differences.(yes different dispensation for nation) /church , and HS)
There was nothing more unifying than a faith shown by circumcision then as baptism does now.

Yet despite desire for unity, Jesus did say the wheat and tares are mixed in, the weak and the strong, mature and immature, the true and the false, on all levels, not just laity.

Hence the caution to “beware”, and to discern and abide closely to the vine, and know His voice in and thru all things ecclesial.

Bless you too.

I do agree that baptism has replaced circumcision and all who are baptized in Christ are in Christ but we don’t want to lose that, we must continue. We must build our house on the Rock. If we don’t there could be a great fall.
*
Matthew 7:26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined*.”

How many ministers have started ministries just to have them divide and divide and then end. The Catholic Church has been since Jesus started it.

There were those of the OT that did not enter into God’s rest. There were those who were disobedient and did not receive salvation.

The comparison of the wheat and tares is not about those who are weak and strong, mature and immature but sinners and righteous. Those who reject Christ and those who do not. The reason for waiting until the right time to gather them all is because no one is beyond coming to Christ, no one is beyond salvation and there are times we must be patient in the hopes the sinners will come to Christ but the end of those who are wheat (remain without Christ) is not good:
Matthews 13:42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears ought to hear.*

If a church is not built on the true foundation of Christ when there is a disagreement regarding scripture differences, and there is no where to go, as instructed in Matthew 18, to go to the Church, the church falls.

I am wondering where do you go in the protestant churches you attend when there are disagreements over scripture and there is not a Church to settle the dispute? My years of experience in Protestantism is nowhere. The church closes and people go somewhere else.

God bless and we are glad you are here.

 

[benhur]

You may be interested in these links:

catholic365.com/article/827/while-the-king-is-away-the-pope-shall-stay-why-the-papacy-just-makes-sense.html

catholic365.com/article/883/understanding-peter-and-the-keys.html

Hi Hockey Puck. Took a look .Thanks. Have seen the arguments before, but liked the freshness of them, like from passionate lay folk. Very persuasive as always, the Catholic arguments. As King Agrippa told Paul, “why, you almost have me persuaded”. But no, and there are similar counter arguments from passionate lay folk also. It is amazing that anyone ever crosses over.

Blessings

 

[CatholicHockey7]

Hi Hockey Puck. Took a look .Thanks. Have seen the arguments before, but liked the freshness of them, like from passionate lay folk. Very persuasive as always, the Catholic arguments. As King Agrippa told Paul, “why, you almost have me persuaded”. But no, and there are similar counter arguments from passionate lay folk also. It is amazing that anyone ever crosses over.

Blessings

Didn’t think I’d persuade you, “chariot boy”

But figured you’d like the quick reads

 

[benhur]

I do agree that baptism has replaced circumcision and all who are baptized in Christ are in Christ but we don’t want to lose that, we must continue. We must build our house on the Rock. If we don’t there could be a great fall.

Agree, but is that Rock Christ or Peter/Office ?

How many ministers have started ministries just to have them divide and divide and then end. The Catholic Church has been since Jesus started it.

I look at it as you stated at first , you must persevere, continue after baptism, being an admonition to the individual believer. As a secondary application/meaning I suppose a ministry or church could apply. I suppose some Catholic ministries, even congregations have come and gone ,and not just protestant ones. The Catholic church has divided also . Unless you think the O’s and P’ started on their own , and did not come out of Catholicism.

The comparison of the wheat and tares is not about those who are weak and strong, mature and immature but sinners and righteous.

Agreed. The first comparison is of those truly in Christ and those not .The next two (weak/strong and mature/immature) are of those in Christ (righteous, in the ecclesia)

The reason for waiting until the right time to gather them all is because no one is beyond coming to Christ, no one is beyond salvation and there are times we must be patient in the hopes the sinners will come to Christ but the end of those who are wheat (remain without Christ) is not good:

Both are in the Church. Satan plants the tares, not in the world but in the Church. They profess Christianity and you can not tell that they reject Christ. Agree, that we do not always know who is who but have opportunity to hold fast and patiently minister as you rightly say.

If a church is not built on the true foundation of Christ when there is a disagreement regarding scripture differences, and there is no where to go, as instructed in Matthew 18, to go to the Church, the church falls.

Do not think the text deals with scriptural arguments but rather personal transgressions. Most folk have a “brethren” in the faith, and also a congregation to comply with the text when an offense occurs.

I am wondering where do you go in the protestant churches you attend when there are disagreements over scripture and there is not a Church to settle the dispute? My years of experience in Protestantism is nowhere. The church closes and people go somewhere else.

Not sure about the closing (some do, just as some Catholic parishes/ congregations close/consolidate) but from what I hear, the number of churches only grows and most still remain protestant.

God bless and we are glad you are here.

Likewise:tiphat:

 

[benhur]

Jesus is God. Jesus BREATHED on the disciples and gave them the power to forgive and RETAIN sin. If the Word of God is all that we need–why did Jesus give the disciples this power? Why don’t Protestants believe in this God breathed power?

They certainly did not exercise this power in a confessional…For sure, 3000 souls had the ultimate sin forgiven because of one powerful, “key” speech .

 

[philv]

Is the Bible all we need? The apostles said to listen to their letters and by word of mouth. The letters are what we call the bible today (and there’s much more outside of it), and what came by word of mouth is called tradition. Scripture and tradition go hand in hand together. To remove one is not getting the fullness of the church.

The issue that I had as a protestant is I didn’t know any better. I didn’t know anything about tradition, because I didn’t grow up with it. So, naturally I stuck to the bible alone. But when I learned about tradition, I found that I’m not alone, and the bible is not alone, but it’s wrapped by the arms of the church, the oral authority.

“See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop.” - St. Ignatius of Antioch, 2nd century Christianity

So, there is an oral tradition. And it’s there so we aren’t divided. But there’s now 33,000 denominations last time I checked.

 

[Cathoholic]

Benhur. You asked in post 634:

They certainly did not exercise this power in a confessional…For sure, 3000 souls had the ultimate sin forgiven because of one powerful, “key” speech .

Actually it was not a “speech” that they received forgiveness.

It was “repent and BE BAPTIZED” and you WILL receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you AND for your children.

ACTS 2:22a, 38-39 22 "Men of Israel, hear these words . . . 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

Benhur. You don’t need to go to Confession when you have your one and only Baptism.

Since in Baptism you are a new creation, Confession isn’t necessary.

The people getting baptized DO have to repent as not repenting of committed sin acts as an impediment to Baptism.

Incidentally. Some will wrongly say

“The fact that St. Peter in Acts chapter 2, says: “Repent and be Baptized” shows us ONLY adults can be baptized because after all, how can a baby REPENT?”

Deniers of Infant Baptism Protest Asking:

• How can a baby “repent” and be baptized?
• How can a baby “believe” and be baptized (elsewhere in Scripture)?
• How can a baby “arise” and be baptized (elsewhere in Scripture)?

The answer to that is St. Peter was preaching to MEN (this wouldn’t disqualify women either), adults who DO need to “repent” and “believe”.

These objections only concern people who are being preached to. (For example, Acts 2:38-39 are not meant to be catechetical statements on the methodology of how one is baptized)

Also these adults being baptized don’t NEED to “arise” to be baptized.

If they lost their legs in an accident, they can still come forth for Baptism in a wheelchair (today) even though a person cannot “arise”.

I know that is OBVIOUS to both you and I Benhur, but this is the same PRINCIPLE of argumentation that SOME use to DENY infants baptism. And it is just as OBVIOUS to a Catholic and many Protestants too; about “believe” and “repent” concerning babies and Baptism, as it is about “arise” concerning adults and Baptism

The Catholic Church STILL 2000 years later tells adults who want Baptism to “repent and be Baptized” but that doesn’t mean the Catholic Church today opposes infant Baptism either.

The Church STILL TELLS ADULTS who seek baptism, to “believe and be baptized”, “repent and be baptized” and “arise and be baptized”.

The only reasons I bring this up is you asked specifically about Confession in the context of Acts chapter 2, the Bible does not address this issue explicitly, which is yet another example of WHY the OP issue of “the Bible is the Word of God it is all we need” is not workable.

Sola Scriptura is a tradition of men that makes void the Commandments of God.

 

[Ignatius]

Hi Hockey Puck. Took a look .Thanks. Have seen the arguments before, but liked the freshness of them, like from passionate lay folk. Very persuasive as always, the Catholic arguments. As King Agrippa told Paul, “why, you almost have me persuaded”.

So, my friend, you think it’s a good thing to not be able to find counter arguments against the Truth so you won’t be persuaded as King Agrippa?

 

[benhur]

So, my friend, you think it’s a good thing to not be able to find counter arguments against the Truth so you won’t be persuaded as King Agrippa?

Hi Ignatius
It is a good thing and we will have that blessedness in the New Jerusalem, when we have a new heaven and a new earth, and Satan is put away forever, as well as all the effects of sin.

 

[benhur]

Benhur. You asked in post 634:“They certainly did not exercise this power in a confessional…For sure, 3000 souls had the ultimate sin forgiven because of one powerful, “key” speech .”

Actually it was not a “speech” that they received forgiveness.

It was “repent and BE BAPTIZED” and you WILL receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you AND for your children.

ACTS 2:22a, 38-39 22 "Men of Israel, hear these words . . . 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

Benhur. You don’t need to go to Confession when you have your one and only Baptism.

Since in Baptism you are a new creation, Confession isn’t necessary.

The people getting baptized DO have to repent as not repenting of committed sin acts as an impediment to Baptism.

Yes, I thought of all this Holic and realized the possible ongoing discussion. My point was you never hear of a confessional after baptism, done by the apostles. You do hear about forgiveness of sins as this 3000.

The only reasons I bring this up is you asked specifically about Confession in the context of Acts chapter 2, the Bible does not address this issue explicitly, which is yet another example of WHY the OP issue of “the Bible is the Word of God it is all we need” is not workable.

And it is exactly the reason why some insist on Scripture to be the final norm, to better discern the evolving history/tradition of the confessional. Acts is very explicit , as is Scripture on how sins are forgiven. History is explicit on the evolving practice of confessing before the congregation and eventually before a priest and then that in a confessional box. All bits of tradition claiming scriptural basis. Why did one church claim confessing before the congregation and then a later church only to a priest ? Is it right for one tradition to void the other ? Is not one traveling further from actual apostolic practice ? Or should such things not be judged and just accept the new practice as OK for the church is infallible (according to another Writ interpretation) anyways, making any counter arguments (biblical,historical,traditional) mute ?

 

[PRmerger]

no dispute,

Then you have added to Scripture, ben. You believe something that none of the inspired writers ever put to writ.

 

[benhur]

Then you have added to Scripture, ben. You believe something that none of the inspired writers ever put to writ.

That is right. We have even added chapter and verse numbers. We have also added capital letter separated from lower case. My bible even has maps!

Good morning PR.Hope your day will be fine. Sorry, I could not avoid the bit of humor.

 

[PRmerger]

That is right. We have even added chapter and verse numbers. We have also added capital letter separated from lower case. My bible even has maps!

Good morning PR.Hope your day will be fine. Sorry, I could not avoid the bit of humor.

Your humor notwithstanding, please take note of this addition you have made to Scripture.

And it is not a trivial addition you have made.

Knowing whether the NT canon has 27 books, 32, or 17 is of great import.

And you know this NOT from the Bible.

You get your info from men.

I hope you consider this next time you claim that you believe in the Bible Alone as your sole rule of faith.

 

[Magdalena59]

Agree, but is that Rock Christ or Peter/Office ?:

You can’t separate Christ from His Church or those he chooses to lead us. If you follow Peter, (Matthew 16: 18-19 And I tell you, you are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven), you are following Christ.

I look at it as you stated at first , you must persevere, continue after baptism, being an admonition to the individual believer. As a secondary application/meaning I suppose a ministry or church could apply. I suppose some Catholic ministries, even congregations have come and gone ,and not just protestant ones. The Catholic church has divided also . Unless you think the O’s and P’ started on their own , and did not come out of Catholicism.])
?:

I did mean the individual believer. He must continue following God’s ways. Humble himself and realize that he doesn’t have all the answers and that there is a place that Jesus gave to us that does have the answers, that is led by the Holy Spirit into that truth.

Correct, people have left the Catholic church, yes, but the Catholic church itself stayed and is one, united under the Scriptures, the Magisterium and Tradition.

Agreed. The first comparison is of those truly in Christ and those not .The next two (weak/strong and mature/immature) are of those in Christ (righteous, in the ecclesia)Both are in the Church. Satan plants the tares, not in the world but in the Church. They profess Christianity and you can not tell that they reject Christ. Agree, that we do not always know who is who but have opportunity to hold fast and patiently minister as you rightly say.?:

You’ll have to explain that part a little better about the weak and the strong because I don’t see that in that parable. If the weeds end up in the furnace of fire and where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, then following your argument the weak Christian or the immature Christian would end up in the furnace of fire. ?? That would then nullify the parable Jesus told where an employer paid all of his employees the same wages no matter when they came to start working, which then would mean a person who repents on their death bed, an immature Christian, would go to the furnace of fire. ??? Matthew 20.

Do not think the text deals with scriptural arguments but rather personal transgressions. Most folk have a “brethren” in the faith, and also a congregation to comply with the text when an offense occurs. .

Many scriptural arguments come because one person or another person believes that their interpretation of the scripture is right and the other person is wrong. As an ex-protestant I have seen this many times. I have seen many arguments and insults over scripture interpretation. It is usually pride and feeling one knows scripture better than the pastor. Also that is many times what causes one to leave the Catholic church. They believe they know more or better than what God revealed to the Church, as they did in the OT when they complained about Moses being the one they had to listen to. These things lead to sin.

*James 3:16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every foul practice. *

Not sure about the closing (some do, just as some Catholic parishes/ congregations close/consolidate) but from what I hear, the number of churches only grows and most still remain protestant.

True, some do consolidate or have to close, perhaps because of financial reasons or in the case of some very old buildings that are no longer safe, or other reasons but not because of scriptural differences.

Not all who after experiencing the strife and division of Christianity remain Christians, many leave the faith all together, not remaining protestant.

Now where in the NT does Jesus say He is giving us a book to interpret but He said He was giving us a Church. Jesus is the Word, who gave us His Church and that includes the Bible and Tradition.

Romans 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; avoid them.

In John 17, Jesus prayed for unity. Divisions are not unity.

 

[clem456]

Paul stating “ALL Scripture is Inspired (God-breathed),” which not only includes the OT Scriptures, but also the NT Scriptures such as ALL Paul’s Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:15-16) & Luke’s Scriptures (1 Timothy 5:18, cf. Luke 10:7), doesn’t make him a “Biblician.” A “Biblican” the way you are using it is someone who believes the Bible “is” God. No one who believes in sola scriptura believes or teaches that. Rather, they believe & teach what the Bible teaches - that Scripture alone is sufficient pertaining to Christian doctrines & beliefs, since Scripture teaches not to “add to,” nor “take away from,” nor “exceed what is written” from the written, Inspired Word of God, which Scripture refers to itself as.

Scripture and Christ aren’t two things a Christian has to choose between. In fact, it’s necessary, because since Scripture “is” God-breathed, it is the only God-breathed creation that we can have 100% certainty that the Jesus Christians worship is the One & only God-Man Jesus.

“only Scripture is God breathed”, and yet you as a human being assert what is God-breathed.
If exclusively scripture is God breathed, then your assertion of what is God breathed is meaningless and pointless. The book would simply materialize, open itself, and begin to assert itself. None of your assertions would be necessary (or Paul’s for that matter). No human being needed. In fact, if only scripture is God breathed, a respect for the living Christ is missing.

Look at the first line of your post as a demonstration of the circular reasoning you use.

Paul stating “ALL Scripture is Inspired (God-breathed),”

You use extra-biblical sources (like human beings, of which Christ is one) to assert that only Scripture is God Breathed. That reduces the concept of Inspiration to a circular meaninglessness.

 

[Magdalena59]

…

Scripture alone is sufficient pertaining to Christian doctrines & beliefs, since Scripture teaches not to “add to,” nor “take away from,” nor “exceed what is written” from the written, Inspired Word of God, which Scripture refers to itself as. .

Applying multiple meanings to what scripture states is adding, taking away from and exceeding what is written.

Scripture is the Inspired Word of God but it does not carrying multiple upon multiple different meanings. God’s Word is truth, not what we choose it to be.