Since there are so many threads about homosexuality

[SuperLuigi]

It is a damning formulation. Although to be clear i was not referring solely to the issue of same sex marriage, but the issue of homosexuality as a whole. I don’t agree with the churches position on homosexuality and I believe the church does persecutes homosexuals who practice homosexuality.

We don’t and neither does anyone else who disagrees with homosexuality or so-called “gay marriage”.

 

[SuperLuigi]

So we shouldn’t let homosexuals get married because of this?

T

hey get labelled with this because they actively try to stop same sex marriage.

It is no different. Marriage is not a Constitutional right for anyone. Family law is reserved to the states.

To be honest if same sex marriage was introduced and a gay couple tried to force a church to marry them, I would be opposed to what that gay couple was doing and view the church as being persecuted.

That’s not enough. We already have issues like this in the Western World. In New Mexico, a Christian couple refused to photograph a gay couples ceremony and got sued in court. New Mexico doesn’t even have recognition of same-sex relationships of any kind.

In the UK, a Christian B&B, which didn’t even allow unmarried straights to stay in a room if they were the opposite sex, was also successfully sued by homosexuals.

We’ve been hearing these promises for YEARS.

“No, really, we won’t make people accept it or Churches do it…no really, we’ll stand with you on pedophilia, bestiality, incest, polygamy…”

Truth be told, some of the loudest voiced to make pedophilia a “sexual orientation” and approval and legal recognition of Islam harems and cousin marriages is coming from the same mouths that support so-called “gay marriage”.

Let me put it this way:

In the late 90s, early 00s when the internet expanded, some of the leading porn sites would network together to try and reduce if not stop child porn.

How’s that been working out?

Those who submit to one form of immorality simply do not seem to have the gumption or the determination to fight another.

It’s one of the devil’s greatest ploys.

 

[Faithdancer]

1. Okay, first off, let’s drop the passive-aggression and start talking frankly. The “thank you” was very rude. Don’t pretend you appreciate me refusing to answer your question. And whatever you say, my response was NOT an answer; you just have a preconceived bias, and you’re using my response as a reason not to try and challenge it.
2. I thought you didn’t intend to derail the thread? Apparently not, then?
3. You said:

Later, when asked why you asked, you said:
(BTW, it is worth mentioning that despite your snark and holier-than-thou fake thank you my response clearly didn’t go anywhere near these questions. You just wanted to make a point. I’m not buying it.)

And then you said that the reason you wanted to know that is that so you could:

So, you want to know why Catholics think homosexuality is inherently wrong, so you can see if the claims hold weight in secular society, and therefore you can understand why we want to persecute a group of people and abuse their human rights.

You’re asking a loaded question. You already have your conclusion-you don’t really want to know if our claims hold weight in secular society, you want to understand why we’re such horrible bigots.

Sorry, I’m afraid there’s no answer forthcoming on that one.

Yes, Marc, and one of the biggest deceptions in recent history is that homosexuals have convinced some people that homosexuality is a morally neutral characteristic, like skin color or age or gender, and not an immoral choice at all. Unfortunately, some so-called Catholics have fallen for the deception and now those who condemn homosexuality for the perversion that it is are labeled as bigots. You hit it right on the head, Brother!

 

[Faithdancer]

Those who submit to one form of immorality simply do not seem to have the gumption or the determination to fight another. It’s one of the devil’s greatest ploys.

You know what’s really scary, too, SuperLuigi? Apparently some so-called Catholics don’t believe in objective evil anymore, i.e. Satan. But belief in objective evil is de fide, and not to believe in it is essentially heresy. Homosexuality is objectively evil, the Magisterium is clear on that. The Sacrament of Marriage is objectively good, the Magisterium is equally clear on that. Therefore to pervert the Sacrament of Marriage by allowing homosexuals to “marry” is not only objectively evil, it is an evil of the highest magnitude.

 

[Elric]

1. Okay, first off, let’s drop the passive-aggression and start talking frankly. The “thank you” was very rude. Don’t pretend you appreciate me refusing to answer your question. And whatever you say, my response was NOT an answer; you just have a preconceived bias, and you’re using my response as a reason not to try and challenge it.

It was a sincere thank you, I am sorry for appearing to be rude that wasn’t my intention

1. I thought you didn’t intend to derail the thread? Apparently not, then?

I responded to people who took time to reply to what I wrote because I thought it was the right thing to do and to clear any misunderstandings. Which is why I am responding to you now. I am sorry for any misunderstanding that i have caused.

1. You said:

I don’t want to post any more because I don’t want to derail the thread. I am happy to discuss this in another thread if you wish, if someone will start such a thread I’m not really sure how to.

Fair enough?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

It was a sincere thank you, I am sorry for appearing to be rude that wasn’t my intention

I responded to people who took time to reply to what I wrote because I thought it was the right thing to do and to clear any misunderstandings. Which is why I am responding to you now. I am sorry for any misunderstanding that i have caused.

I don’t want to post any more because I don’t want to derail the thread. I am happy to discuss this in another thread if you wish, if someone will start such a thread I’m not really sure how to.

Fair enough?

Very well, a truce has been reached. Start another thread if you wish. I probably won’t get to it tonight because I’m tired and am really only checking in, but I’ll respond if I remember and have the time.

(There is a “New Thread” button on the upper left directly above the forum threads in the Social Justice sub-forum.)

 

[Dale_M]

Unbelievers keep trying to shift the argument to a secular sphere. What they don’t get is that for devout Catholics, homosexual “marriage” is an innately moral issue.

The issue of same-sex marriage is one where the values of a liberal democracy bump against the understanding of objective morality. Should the views of the Catholic Church be imposed on those who don’t adhere to the Church?

A similar situation regards the publication of movies or cartoons which are gravely immoral to Muslims. Should the morality of orthodox Islam prevail over those who don’t adhere to that faith? Muslims believe they are following objective moral codes, just as the Catholic Church believes it is following an objective moral law. Should the view of either religion determine public policy or constrain individual liberty?

 

[TimeEntrance]

Actually, no, if you are Roman Catholic you cannot support gay “marriage” for any reason. The Magisterium opposes gay “marriage” completely and all Roman Catholics are required to obey the Magisterium. If you are Roman Catholic you are simply not allowed to make up your own rules, or pick and choose which Church teachings you want to agree with a la “cafeteria Catholicism.”

I’m catholic in a number of senses. However, I’m not a faithfully practicing Catholic. Not at this time. Although, I don’t know how much that says since it’s not uncommon for me to “be more Catholic” than many regularly Sunday Mass attending Catholics.

To be honest - and hence the reason for the sacrament of confession - very few Catholics on earth following every single thing the Church teaches.

The Church opposed many things at onetime and accepted others. The Church accepted chattel slavery once upon a time, now it’s Social Justice doctrine asserts the rights for labor 360 degrees from that. And I think it once opposed democracy. At any rate… I can support gay marriage as much as Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine supported legalized prostitution (so did the Papal States which even had male prostitutes). There has been as very few gay societies as 17th Century Italy, by the way.

It is a damning formulation. Although to be clear i was not referring solely to the issue of same sex marriage, but the issue of homosexuality as a whole. I don’t agree with the churches position on homosexuality and I believe the church does persecutes homosexuals who practice homosexuality.

@ bold: Hardly. How would that persecution unfold: The hierarchy of the Church holds gay males closer to their bosom than they do crack addicts. There are plenty of gay priests and plenty of them that had sexual misconduct with minors and children. The Church never persecuted them.

To know persecution you have to be policed, hunted, searched, arrested, and incarcerated for possession of illegal drugs irrespective if you’re not harming anyone. Or as pro-choice abortion women like to say, “My body, my choice.” That only goes for alcohol drinkers, smokers, women that abort their children, and homosexuals and lesbians.

Persecution is the costly war on drugs being fought.

There are more cops roaming my neighborhood with an order to break U.S. Constitutional law from the police chief via unwarranted stops and searches (all a cop has to say is you look suspicious) through any “policing” I ever received in the U.S. military. Now I know how the Palestinians feel in Israel.

My point is… the Catholic Church is not persecuting gay people. It can’t even persecute the heretics and rumored Satanists within it’s own clerical ranks. No other institution on earth allows so much rebelling within its ranks. Not the U.S. Government not any private corporation not any U.S. newspaper. Not no institution is the equal to the Catholic Church in that regards.

 

[TimeEntrance]

You know what’s really scary, too, SuperLuigi? Apparently some so-called Catholics don’t believe in objective evil anymore, i.e. Satan. But belief in objective evil is de fide, and not to believe in it is essentially heresy. Homosexuality is objectively evil, the Magisterium is clear on that. The Sacrament of Marriage is objectively good, the Magisterium is equally clear on that. Therefore to pervert the Sacrament of Marriage by allowing homosexuals to “marry” is not only objectively evil, it is an evil of the highest magnitude.

What does this say about some Mormons and Muslims with more than one wife?

And what if two gay males that marry were never baptized?

I view homosexual marriage as an oxymoron. But hey… I don’t like smoking marijuana either but I have no problem with that being made legal.

Anyways… more Catholics would do well to worry about the sacramentality of their own marriages. And among heterosexuals in the U.S. no one is perverting the sacredness of marriage more than them. Fifty percent divorce rate. Shotgun wedding chapels in Las Vegas. And didn’t that Kardisian woman divorce her husband after a few days or weeks or something? :ehh:

 

[Faithdancer]

What does this say about some Mormons and Muslims with more than one wife?Objectively evil.

And what if two gay males that marry were never baptized?Objectively evil.

I view homosexual marriage as an oxymoron. But hey… I don’t like smoking marijuana either but I have no problem with that being made legal. Both objectively evil.

Anyways… more Catholics would do well to worry about the sacramentality of their own marriages. And among heterosexuals in the U.S. no one is perverting the sacredness of marriage more than them. Fifty percent divorce rate. Civil divorce and remarriage without annulment are objectively evil. Shotgun wedding chapels in Las Vegas. Not sacramental, hasty and ill-advised, but not necessarily evil, provided there are no impediments. For Catholics to engage in sexual relations without a proper sacramental marriage would be objectively evil, however, regardless of how good the Elvis impersonator was. And didn’t that Kardisian woman divorce her husband after a few days or weeks or something? Fornication many times over, excessive narcissism evidencing sinful pride, etc- objectively evil. :ehh:

Did I miss anything? Am I consistent? None of these other sins alleviate or excuse the sin of gay sex.

The good news is that God forgives all of these sins, and all other sins (except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and even that is open to debate and interpretation among theologians) in the Sacrament of Reconcilation. Such a beautiful thing about the Catholic faith- we are held accountable, but also forgiven. Deo gratias.

 

[SuperLuigi]

The issue of same-sex marriage is one where the values of a liberal democracy bump against the understanding of objective morality. Should the views of the Catholic Church be imposed on those who don’t adhere to the Church?

It’s going too soon because they’re getting the numbers. No one else is having kids, for one.

Muslims believe they are following objective moral codes, just as the Catholic Church believes it is following an objective moral law. Should the view of either religion determine public policy or constrain individual liberty?

The Islamic parodies are free speech, but the question is why would anyone want to go after someone else’s key religious figure? What’s to be gained from it? A few laughs from couch potatoes who don’t have a job and can’t be bothered to attend daily mass?

I know a good portion of the secular left delights in attacking Christianity, but most of the time they think twice about offending Islam. In fact, they have a word for it: Islamophobia. Islam has a very high place now on the progressive’s ladder of victimhood.

Still, my protests to cultural displays offensive to Christianity are often rooted in economics. Nearly three in four Americans are Christian, and with illegals there are over 70 million Catholics and surveys consistently show that nearly 9 in 10 Americans believe in God or a higher power.

If you’re going out of your way to offend those groups just to please a marginal community in your neighborhood, it seems like a waste and a potential loss on your part.

[/QUOTE]

 

[SuperLuigi]

You know what’s really scary, too, SuperLuigi? Apparently some so-called Catholics don’t believe in objective evil anymore, i.e. Satan. But belief in objective evil is de fide, and not to believe in it is essentially heresy. Homosexuality is objectively evil, the Magisterium is clear on that. The Sacrament of Marriage is objectively good, the Magisterium is equally clear on that. Therefore to pervert the Sacrament of Marriage by allowing homosexuals to “marry” is not only objectively evil, it is an evil of the highest magnitude.

I agree with what you say, but it won’t stop the progressives out in the world or on here.
Most seem too interested in what they are convinced is “helping others”, or more likely trying to look and feel good in front of people who are different. Some of them probably have some sort of financial stake in the matter as well.

The reasons are almost as old as humanity itself, and as the Bible says, one cannot serve two Masters, either you can serve God, or you can be a slave of the world thinking you are loved by all and/or the smartest person in the room but are really are controlled by your emotions and just a dunce for the devil.

 

[Dale_M]

No, and the Church would say that force is unacceptable.

The Catholic Church has long advocated using government to impose morality. The campaign against same-sex marriage is just one recent example.

But where the imposition comes in is the state forcing those of us who disagree with homosexuality to pay for it through martial rights.

Government routinely spends money on policies which not all citizens agree with. The invasion of Iraq is a major case in point, but so are such things as spending on the space program or on federal education grants.

 

[Elric]

More homosexualists are coming in…

I thought that this might be directed at me and for the sake of clarity, I thought that I should address this.

I am not gay. I live with my spouse, she doesn’t believe in marriage, with our two children and my 15 month old nephew who we are fostering because his intellectually disabled mother (my sister) is unable to care for him and his pedophile father is not allowed to have contact with him.

Its not another homosexual coming in. I am sorry for any confusion caused.

 

[atheistgirl]

"No, really, we won’t make people accept it or Churches do it…

I can’t see how Churches could be forced to conduct a sacramental marriage against their beliefs.

It would be impossible.

The sacramental nature as I understand it comes from the Church formula and requirements and specific ritual pronounced by a validly ordained priest. Without this, no valid sacramental marriage takes place in the eyes of God.

You can’t *force *people to pronounce things they don’t believe or agree with, even under the threat of the law.

And even if you could, which you can’t, no sacramental marriage would take place anyhow because the Church can’t marry two same sex adults in a sacramental marriage.

Sarah x

 

[Marc_Anthony]

The Catholic Church has long advocated using government to impose morality. The campaign against same-sex marriage is just one recent example.

The thing is, that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. All laws legislate morality to one extent or another.

The real question is whether or not this is putting the legislation of morality OVER the values held in a free society like the United States. At what point is the enforcement of morality infringing on the rights given to us in the U.S. Constitution? THAT’S the real debate. And, of course, whether same-sex marriage is immoral at all.

 

[Seeker1961]

I can’t see how Churches could be forced to conduct a sacramental marriage against their beliefs.

It would be impossible.

The sacramental nature as I understand it comes from the Church formula and requirements and specific ritual pronounced by a validly ordained priest. Without this, no valid sacramental marriage takes place in the eyes of God.

You can’t *force *people to pronounce things they don’t believe or agree with, even under the threat of the law.

And even if you could, which you can’t, no sacramental marriage would take place anyhow because the Church can’t marry two same sex adults in a sacramental marriage.

Sarah x

and the truth of the matter is-it hasn’t happened. Even in the liberal bastion of NYC, not one single Catholic church has had to fight against gay people who “demand” that they marry them. It hasn’t happened in any other American place that already allows gay marriage.

However, it’s a fear card that keeps getting played over and over and over hoping that people won’t notice the lack of actual evidence.

There are a great many things that secular society says is legal to do that my Church says is not ok for me to do. I have no trouble obeying those rules without the force of a secular law. To me, the choice to obey the Church IN SPITE OF the laws of secular society makes faith stronger. I think about the Orthodox Jews that own the deli up the street from me, they aren’t asking everyone in America to stop eating pork, to worship on Saturday or stop putting dairy and meat on the same plates-but they are doing it. They close that deli on Friday night before sundown and don’t reopen until Sunday, even though they know they’re losing potential customers on those busy Saturday mornings.

Keep standing up for traditional marriage, continue to encourage people to understand the entire Theology of the Body and WHY the Church believes that gay marriage is wrong in the larger context. Those arguments are harder to make, they don’t fit on a bumper sticker but they are the real truth.

 

[Faithdancer]

The thing is, that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. All laws legislate morality to one extent or another.

The real question is whether or not this is putting the legislation of morality OVER the values held in a free society like the United States. At what point is the enforcement of morality infringing on the rights given to us in the U.S. Constitution? THAT’S the real debate. And, of course, whether same-sex marriage is immoral at all.

If homosexuality is immoral- and the Catholic Church states unequivocally that it is- then how can homosexual “marriage” be moral?

 

[Seeker1961]

If homosexuality is immoral- and the Catholic Church states unequivocally that it is- then how can homosexual “marriage” be moral?

If you’re Catholic, it can’t.

If you’re not…you aren’t measuring morality by the Catholic church then are you?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

If homosexuality is immoral- and the Catholic Church states unequivocally that it is- then how can homosexual “marriage” be moral?

I agree. I’m just saying that that should be the focus of the debate-that and whether or not denying same-sex marriage infringes upon the rights of those living in a free society. The “we shouldn’t legislate morality” card doesn’t really work.