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Adamski
Guest
Why do luke warm catholics between 55-75 years old always think Vatican 2 changed things it didn’t my aunt yesterday said there is no more purgatory since Vatican 2
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
Some people are well formed in their faith, others aren’t. I don’t think it’s a question of age. You may talk with a 55 year old who doesn’t believe in Purgatory or a 25 year old who doesn’t believe in chastity. Those who don’t know or don’t agree with Church teachings are all somewhat in the same boat.
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Genesis315
Guest
The event of Vatican II was a catalyst for all sorts of nuttiness which caused the transmission of the faith to be impaired (there’s a reason why the Church in our time published the first universal Catechism since the time of the Reformation). It would take a massive sociological study to fully explain why***. Of course, Vatican II explicitly affirms the truth of Purgatory (see, for example, Lumen Gentium 50-51).
***Here is a link to a priest writing of his experience growing up before nuttiness and then being in seminary and as a priest as it really exploded. While his main focus is on liturgical craziness, you also get a glimpse of the theological craziness. I think it gives a good glimpse into how the various problems came about, and it’s written in an entertaining way to boot.
He actually starts in the 1300s and works his way through various epochs which all influenced what was to come. If you want to skip to the most directly related part, I recommend starting on page 59.
stlambert.org/documents/2015/1/History_of_the_Hootenanny_Mass.pdf
***Here is a link to a priest writing of his experience growing up before nuttiness and then being in seminary and as a priest as it really exploded. While his main focus is on liturgical craziness, you also get a glimpse of the theological craziness. I think it gives a good glimpse into how the various problems came about, and it’s written in an entertaining way to boot.
He actually starts in the 1300s and works his way through various epochs which all influenced what was to come. If you want to skip to the most directly related part, I recommend starting on page 59.
stlambert.org/documents/2015/1/History_of_the_Hootenanny_Mass.pdf
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Lormar
Guest
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Adamski
Guest
No but that age group some how uses Vatican 2 to say why they don’t beleive in something
And most young catholics just leave the church they don’t try to change it and stay
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Lormar
Guest
Most young Catholics don’t even know the faith. The majority of the under sixty crowd would fail a basic Catechism test.
And you can’t blame the “baby boomers” for discarding purgatory. When was the last time you heard the word in your parish? Maybe you are one of the fortunate ones that is in a parish that still believes in it, but many of us are not.
Do you read obituaries in the newspaper? Ever attend a funeral Mass in your diocese? Everyone goes straight to Heaven it seems, so you can hardly blame anyone for thinking that purgatory has gone out of business.
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JurisPrudens
Guest
I imagine the Bishops of the Council calling to God: “Hey, Lord, the Purgatory was nice, but You should close it now”.
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smead2942
Guest
The Second Vatican Council was a pastoral council-- not doctrinal. Theoretically, it changed nothing (aside from the obvious pastoral and liturgical elements…smh). The “Spirit of Vatican II”, also known as the fruits of Vatican II, is what made the changes. Bishops and priests who took the Council out-of-context and used it to progress their modernist heresies.
Thus, the Council has no real binding authority. It is fallible. Pope Paul VI himself stated
“There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.”
People need to stop playing into the neo-catholic postconciliar garbage.
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edwest2
Guest
There were, and are, dissidents inside and outside the Church who claim the changes in Western culture which began in the late 1960s had something to do with Vatican II. Changes did occur but Vatican II did not even suggest them. That includes certain visible changes inside individual Churches, and incorrect teachings creeping in.
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pianistclare
Guest
It’s just an excuse. And I do also think it matters if people were young when it happened.
They grew up hearing their parents saying it all went pear shaped during their growing up years. Lots of unhappy campers if there we part of a parish that imploded. So they became jaded as well.
Plus, it’s been 50 years. Enough already.
But yeah. Just an excuse. Don’t let it get you down.
The Church will survive. Has survived far worse.
Jesus is present in the Eucharist.
God bless.
They grew up hearing their parents saying it all went pear shaped during their growing up years. Lots of unhappy campers if there we part of a parish that imploded. So they became jaded as well.
Plus, it’s been 50 years. Enough already.
But yeah. Just an excuse. Don’t let it get you down.
The Church will survive. Has survived far worse.
Jesus is present in the Eucharist.
God bless.
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Tarpeian_Rock
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DaveBj
Guest
I’m in the middle of this. It’s a hoot – I recommend it
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
The decision was taken before WW II that Catholics were not to be catechised any more and the go-ahead was given well before the Council. My Mum and Dad would have been grateful for catechesis - then I wouldn’t be a second-generation Teilhard victim.
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dreamer29
Guest
I enjoyed reading the document. I still favor the Extraordinary Form, because I did yesterday’s Mass and I do today’s Mass and I know the difference!
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JimG
Guest
Some people confuse purgatory with limbo. I knew guy who thought that they were both the same and Vat II eliminated both. In fact, neither was eliminated. Purgatory remains a doctrine, and limbo remains, as it was before, a theological opinion, still a valid one.
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Lormar
Guest
Since you mention Limbo, maybe you can answer this for me.
Why was it in the old Baltimore Catechisms if it was only a theological opinion? We were taught it as fact. I remember very clearly being taught it. And I remember going to the cemetery with my mother and looking at all of the babies who had died before being baptized in a separate place. I remember being told that they couldn’t be buried in consecrated ground because they had died before being baptized.
I’m not trying to start a controversy, but this question has been on my mind for a few months now.
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JimG
Guest
Well, as I recall, it was a pretty widely accepted theological opinion. I don’t recall it ever being taught as doctrine myself, but one never knows. I think it was taught pretty much as a corollary to the fact that Baptism was necessary for salvation.
Also, there were some various ways in which it was described. I’ve heard some describe it as nearly an antechamber to hell. What I was taught was that it was a place of perfect natural happiness, lacking only the beatific vision. But it was never doctrine. The Church didn’t know–still doesn’t, so it just says that we leave it up to the mercy of God. Of course, theologians can still speculate.
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edwest2
Guest
I was taught Limbo was a real place in Catholic school in the 1960s. I have no reason to doubt this today.
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JimG
Guest
So was I, but mainly in conjunction with the idea that no one could get into heaven until Jesus had come, and opened the gates of heaven with his saving sacrifice. Thus, all the ancient saints of the OT were in Limbo awaiting Jesus’ arrival. (The harrowing of hell, which remains a real doctrine.) But I’m not sure if the distinction between the Limbo of the Fathers and the Limbo of the unbaptized was made clear. In any case, I was taught that there were no unhappy babies in Limbo because it was a place of perfect natural happiness.
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Adamski
Guest
My dad told me since Vatican 2 you don’t need to go to confession any more
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