"Since Vatican 2"

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One can’t blame Vatican II for all the social ills that sometimes seem to have followed it. Vatican II didn’t create the sexual revolution. There is nothing in its documents which mandated the elimination of catechesis, the de-emphasis of doctrine, the removal of altar rails, or the adoption of secular music for worship. Even while Vatican II was going on, however, the news reports did not much cover the actual documents of the Council. They rather dwelt on personal controversies, opinion columns and side issues. The real work of the Council was not much appreciated until things settled down. In the meantime, liturgists and academics proposed (and accomplished) much in the way of changes “in the spirit of the Council” which were not the work of the Council. The pendulum swung rather toward the crazy side of things, and has now begun to swing back.
That is exactly right. Shortly before stepping down, Pope Benedict addressed why things unfolded as they did, twice:

ncregister.com/daily-news/benedict-and-the-second-vatican-council-calming-the-storm/

ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-media-spread-misinterpretations-of-vatican-ii/

Ed
 
And yet we are having this discussion about why our children have no compelling reason…
Was memorizing the catechism really a good start?

The truth is, the generation that memorized the catechism did a poor job of catechizing and evangelizing. We could recite the “what”, but not explain the “why”. In defense, there seemed to be no need, since the whole world seemed to value religion. In reality, we gave our children no compelling reason to believe when the culture inevitably turned away from religion.

Show of hands please:
How many of us that had pre V2 parents ever heard our parents explain the faith around the kitchen table?
“I believe in Jesus Christ because…”
How many of us even heard our parents utter the name Jesus?
A Christianity that can’t even say the name Jesus is not going to be an enduring faith. Memorizing the facts is not evangelizing.
Never, ever, did we walk out of Religion class WITHOUT understanding that we needed to live out our faith daily as most of our neighbors did at the time. Only when the wolves came into our neighborhoods, their loud preaching created confusion and their scandalous, immoral living created division and hurt feelings. Jesus was on our wall on a calendar. We received a monthly Catholic magazine. The palms from Palm Sunday were wrapped around a religious image when they dried.

Ed
 
Agreed that rote catechesis was de-emphasized. But it was never very good to begin with. Their are legions of Catholics over the age of 60 who don’t know the difference between Jesus and a yardstick.

I disagree that rote catechesis is a good place to start.
That is just plain false. Jesus was in our daily lives. He lived in our hearts and minds. His instruction guided us and kept us out of trouble. Our conscience was in tune with Him as much as we were able. I saw adults struggle with stopping themselves from doing wrong and winning and not spreading their personal, private scandal around. Gossip was forbidden.

Ed
 
I was, but then I was catechized before and during Vatican II, before the ‘great catechetical decline.’ And while that decline may persist in some places, where I live it has long since been corrected. Catholic elementary and high schools around here do a very good job of Catechesis.
👍 My past and present experience exactly.
 
Well, one of the better fruits of Vatican 2, have been the droves of conversions of East Asians. Chinese missionaries in China were very supportive of it pre-Vatican 2 in general, because they knew Vatican 2 was gonna blast the door wide open for the Chinese, and other Asians. But other than that, the other fruits of Vatican 2 are not exactly quite as nice.
 
It wasn’t just that “rote” catechesis was de-emphasized. All catechesis was de-emphasized. To paraphrase the bishop of whom I spoke, “I knew how to sing happy songs, I knew how to make banners, I knew we should be kind to one another. But I had not the slightest idea of what the Eucharist was until I was in seminary.”

(Coming from a better catechized generation, I knew what the Eucharist was in Second grade!)
And so those who had the head knowledge of what the Eucharist is in second grade, did not lay a foundation. Otherwise we would not be having this discussion. If there is no responsibility of parents for children pre/post, then the only response is: “it’s the cultures fault”.
Where do you see the disconnect between:

1960 Catholics
and
Their children who were born in 1960 and lived through the cultural earthquake?

Did these children not grow up in families who were responsible for them?

I happen to believe the Gospel is more powerful than the culture, and we have a responsibility not to merely learn the faith, but to live it and to give a reason for it, so that the next big lie does not throw us off course.

If those who lived before the council had laid this solid foundation, those who came after would have built upon it and not fragmented into a thousand different directions. To cast blame on the culture is an abdication of responsibility.

It’s no different with my own children. I have a responsibility to live the Gospel for them, and give good reason in response to their “why?”
They will ask why, and we no longer live in a Catholic culture that answers this “why” in a comfortable and certain manner. We need catechesis that goes beyond “because the catechism says so”.

The council was an inspired and brilliant thing, because it recognized the information overload that would challenge the faith. The council challenged the Church to sharpen it’s intellectual sword so that it might cut through the often deceptive information that is in abundance. It’s no wonder that someone like Saint JP2, who is a philosopher for the ages, was so present in the council.
 
Here’s an illustration of the limitations of rote learning.

RCIA has begun. We have a new priest who is a wonderful priest, very concerned with orthodoxy and with bringing Christ to the parish through the sacraments and the teaching of the Church. He is a good example of the new generation of priests coming out who are just rock solid.

In his youth he is very concerned with doing and saying everything right, not making a misstep. Good for him. His concern shows that he cares about serving Christ.

The challenge is, he is talking at the catechumens instead of* to *them or with them. He presents all the right material, but his love for Christ does not come through in a way that is appealing to people. At this point in his vocation, his presentation is a little impersonal, and the power of the Gospel is not cutting through the information.

Some of these catechumens are still asking “why” should I believe and become Catholic, and the facts of the faith are not moving them. They are looking for more compelling reasons to continue on this journey. In most cases, the spouse or sponsor is going to have to step up and look them in the eye, and give them a living Gospel, to go along with the rote learning.
 
And so those who had the head knowledge of what the Eucharist is in second grade, did not lay a foundation. Otherwise we would not be having this discussion. If there is no responsibility of parents for children pre/post, then the only response is: “it’s the cultures fault”.
Where do you see the disconnect between:

1960 Catholics
and
Their children who were born in 1960 and lived through the cultural earthquake?

Did these children not grow up in families who were responsible for them?

I happen to believe the Gospel is more powerful than the culture, and we have a responsibility not to merely learn the faith, but to live it and to give a reason for it, so that the next big lie does not throw us off course.

If those who lived before the council had laid this solid foundation, those who came after would have built upon it and not fragmented into a thousand different directions. To cast blame on the culture is an abdication of responsibility.

It’s no different with my own children. I have a responsibility to live the Gospel for them, and give good reason in response to their “why?”
They will ask why, and we no longer live in a Catholic culture that answers this “why” in a comfortable and certain manner. We need catechesis that goes beyond “because the catechism says so”.

The council was an inspired and brilliant thing, because it recognized the information overload that would challenge the faith. The council challenged the Church to sharpen it’s intellectual sword so that it might cut through the often deceptive information that is in abundance. It’s no wonder that someone like Saint JP2, who is a philosopher for the ages, was so present in the council.
I suppose that there is plenty of blame to go around, but it is not spread evenly. In my opinion, much of the blame can be attributed to those who were directly responsible for Catholic catechesis—teachers, RCIA teachers and coordinators, administrators. Often parents were simply unaware of how drastically the process of Catholic teaching had changed, and how quickly.

I grew up with five brothers and sisters. As I mentioned before, I was taught by nuns in a Catholic school. I was out of that school and in the military by the time my youngest siblings were in the same school. In the meantime, Vatican II had occurred, most of the nuns were replaced by lay teachers, the teaching materials had been radically changed. The practices had been changed. I was aware of many changes due to V2, but I had no idea that the teaching of the Faith would be so drastically altered. I assumed that my younger siblings were learning the same things I had, but they were not. That only became apparent in the course of casual conversations much later.

Now maybe I should have quizzed them more often. Maybe my parents should have. But they had no reason to think that catechesis had essentially ceased, and been replaced by happy talk. They had no reason to think that the Catholic school they had grown up with had suddenly ceased to teach Catholicism.

Later, I volunteered as a CCD teacher. At the beginning of the year, the administrator distributed some textbooks from different publishers asking for opinions. Looking them over, I noticed that only one series was strong on content, strong on Faith, and well organized. The others were eclectic and wishy washy, giving the reader no clue as to what it means to be Catholic. I wrote a review strongly recommending the faithful and orthodox text. But the other one was selected, which was nearly useless and without content.

Frankly, the radicals assumed control of most religious education. That’s why the future bishop did not receive a good Catholic education until he got in seminary. (And there was a period when the seminaries were also pretty much taken over as well. They had to fight their own battles to regain orthodox teaching.)

None of this was the fault of Vatican II. One can read through the documents of Vatican II and never find instructions to sing Simon & Garfunkel songs at Mass, to toss out Gregorian chant, to remove altar rails, or provide poor catechesis. No, those things were done by those who presumed to take control of “implementation” of Vatican II, whatever that means, and they took no prisoners.
 
The Second Vatican Council was a pastoral council-- not doctrinal. Theoretically, it changed nothing (aside from the obvious pastoral and liturgical elements…smh). The “Spirit of Vatican II”, also known as the fruits of Vatican II, is what made the changes. Bishops and priests who took the Council out-of-context and used it to progress their modernist heresies.

Thus, the Council has no real binding authority. It is fallible. Pope Paul VI himself stated
“There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.”

People need to stop playing into the neo-catholic postconciliar garbage.
It would also be nice if you would bother yourself to read the documents.
 
That is just plain false. Jesus was in our daily lives. He lived in our hearts and minds. His instruction guided us and kept us out of trouble. Our conscience was in tune with Him as much as we were able. I saw adults struggle with stopping themselves from doing wrong and winning and not spreading their personal, private scandal around. Gossip was forbidden.

Ed
Well, actually, no, clem is not false. The 90+ page ruminations by a priest about the “hootenanny” Mass has some real telling points, and one of those is the fact that a lot of the teaching in the 40’s and 50’s and early 60’s was a minimalistic, legalistic, and perfunctory. Additionally, a whole lot of Catholics growing up were in public schools, particularly in high school, and got nothing beyond a grade school memorization level.

Not all of us stopped learning; but many never got beyond a memorized “faith”. When about half of those Catholics over 60 are attending Mass regularly (and the statistics get far worse for the younger groups), one has to account for the other 50%. While some of them are the liberal bozos who thought the Church needed reinventing, and eventually dropped out, a whole lot of others are Catholics residing in evangelical and fundamental churches, who never got the message Paul’s preaching “Christ, and Him crucified”. All they knew of the Church was whatever they managed to retain, of rules and memorized answers, which for them ultimately held no content.

Yes, for children, memorization may play an important part, but it can only be a part. If they child does not form a relationship with Christ in addition to memorized answers, there is precious little to keep them growing in faith.
 
Isn’t it true that in every age there are challenges to the Gospel?

The cultural earthquake of the last half of the 20th century is certainly on of the more noteworthy challenges. How do we deal with these challenges? Martyrs of past ages demonstrate responsibility and faithfulness to the person of Jesus Christ, to the point of shedding blood. They overcame these challenges with real faith in the person of Christ, not by decrying how contrary the culture is to the purposes of the gospel.
 
Well, actually, no, clem is not false. The 90+ page ruminations by a priest about the “hootenanny” Mass has some real telling points, and one of those is the fact that a lot of the teaching in the 40’s and 50’s and early 60’s was a minimalistic, legalistic, and perfunctory. Additionally, a whole lot of Catholics growing up were in public schools, particularly in high school, and got nothing beyond a grade school memorization level.

Not all of us stopped learning; but many never got beyond a memorized “faith”. When about half of those Catholics over 60 are attending Mass regularly (and the statistics get far worse for the younger groups), one has to account for the other 50%. While some of them are the liberal bozos who thought the Church needed reinventing, and eventually dropped out, a whole lot of others are Catholics residing in evangelical and fundamental churches, who never got the message Paul’s preaching “Christ, and Him crucified”. All they knew of the Church was whatever they managed to retain, of rules and memorized answers, which for them ultimately held no content.

Yes, for children, memorization may play an important part, but it can only be a part. If they child does not form a relationship with Christ in addition to memorized answers, there is precious little to keep them growing in faith.
Having been there, I can add this. For too many Catholics today, an hour in Church once a week, maybe a Christmas or Easter Mass and you’re done. Back when there were three or four TV channels, Bishop Fulton Sheen had a TV program called “Life is Worth Living.” It ran from 1952 to 1957.

In the back of my Church were racks filled with shirt pocket-size booklets that covered a wide variety of issues. Going to Church was like breathing. Even as kids, we knew God was in there, what the Eucharist was. The Priest said, “Body of Christ” and there was no question that it was literal. Religion class was meant to give age-appropriate understanding to young people about the faith. And for adults, there were religious groups devoted to Mary or the Sacred Heart. There was a set of banners in the front of the Church.

Once I saw the priest walking down the street and I asked my mom, where is he going? He was carrying something and she told me he was visiting someone who was sick. The Life we were taught was lived out every day. Every day. We understood good and bad, right and wrong and how to interact with others. Our faith was lived. We feared God. Unlike today, for too many.

Abortion was unheard of. (We knew it happened but it was not legal in the US.)

Divorce was rare.

There was a home run by nuns for ‘wayward girls.’

And we were neat and clean and polite.

You could turn on the TV and watch it as a family since there was no immoral content, unlike today.

And Christmas. The decorations. Christ is born! Beautiful editorials in the newspapers, and Merry Christmas! in public. A group called the ACLU helped to get God out of view.

Ed
 
It’s no different with my own children. I have a responsibility to live the Gospel for them, and give good reason in response to their “why?”
They will ask why, and we no longer live in a Catholic culture that answers this “why” in a comfortable and certain manner. We need catechesis that goes beyond “because the catechism says so”.
If rote catechism isn’t a good start, then perhaps curiosity about one’s faith is? And from my experience, knowing the answer to every “why” isn’t as important as knowing where to find the answer. That’s one of the reasons for CAF, isn’t it? 😉
 
If rote catechism isn’t a good start, then perhaps curiosity about one’s faith is? And from my experience, knowing the answer to every “why” isn’t as important as knowing where to find the answer. That’s one of the reasons for CAF, isn’t it? 😉
Very good points.
 
Having been there, I can add this. For too many Catholics today, an hour in Church once a week, maybe a Christmas or Easter Mass and you’re done. Back when there were three or four TV channels, Bishop Fulton Sheen had a TV program called “Life is Worth Living.” It ran from 1952 to 1957.

In the back of my Church were racks filled with shirt pocket-size booklets that covered a wide variety of issues. Going to Church was like breathing. Even as kids, we knew God was in there, what the Eucharist was. The Priest said, “Body of Christ” and there was no question that it was literal. Religion class was meant to give age-appropriate understanding to young people about the faith. And for adults, there were religious groups devoted to Mary or the Sacred Heart. There was a set of banners in the front of the Church.

Once I saw the priest walking down the street and I asked my mom, where is he going? He was carrying something and she told me he was visiting someone who was sick. The Life we were taught was lived out every day. Every day. We understood good and bad, right and wrong and how to interact with others. Our faith was lived. We feared God. Unlike today, for too many.

Abortion was unheard of. (We knew it happened but it was not legal in the US.)

Divorce was rare.

There was a home run by nuns for ‘wayward girls.’

And we were neat and clean and polite.

You could turn on the TV and watch it as a family since there was no immoral content, unlike today.

And Christmas. The decorations. Christ is born! Beautiful editorials in the newspapers, and Merry Christmas! in public. A group called the ACLU helped to get God out of view.

Ed
I can affirm all that you say here. The Catholic faith, even for children, was real, and not a mere matter of rote memorization. We did not simply have recourse to what we had memorized, although we did indeed remember it. In my four years of high school, no one had sex; no one got pregnant, a fact which seems unbelievable when recounted today. But the fact is, the same was mostly true of the public high school up the street as well. Public morality was upheld by nearly all parents of whatever religion.

What we did not realize until much later was the extent to which radicals had managed to take over power in ecclesiastical and liturgical organizations, during the years following Vatican II.
 
I can affirm all that you say here. The Catholic faith, even for children, was real, and not a mere matter of rote memorization. We did not simply have recourse to what we had memorized, although we did indeed remember it. In my four years of high school, no one had sex; no one got pregnant, a fact which seems unbelievable when recounted today. But the fact is, the same was mostly true of the public high school up the street as well. Public morality was upheld by nearly all parents of whatever religion.

What we did not realize until much later was the extent to which radicals had managed to take over power in ecclesiastical and liturgical organizations, during the years following Vatican II.
Why have radicals taken over parish catechesis and liturgy and music and etc…? How could they pull off this coup without guns and knives?

I remember well intentioned young people trying to breathe new life into the Church while those who knew the catechism sat on their hands waiting for “Father” to straighten things out. It still goes on. Like it or not, there is a new ministry class that is doing parish catechesis, and it’s not to our liking. Someone has taken the initiative to proclaim the faith and we don’t like the way it’s done. So? What do we do? I don’t like it any more than anyone else. Our parish is run by a handful of progressive women who are in favor of female priesthood and opening the Eucharist to literally anyone. I’m not kidding. And I’m not bemoaning the fact that these are women, I’m just making the observation. It is a very closed and politically correct group that does what they want, when they want, while the rest of us are welcome to serve coffee and do the landscaping. If you don’t speak the correct way and use the new “Church speak”, you are not welcome to talk about your faith. If you talk about the grace available in confession (excuse me, reconciliation is the only correct term), repentance from sin, etc… the parish staff looks at you like you’re crazy. Parish retreats are an excruciatingly oppressive and bland affair devoid of the power of Catholicism. I get it. It’s the new face of clericalism.

But blaming the council and the radicals doesn’t solve much, does it? They got involved and spoke up about their faith, they went to ministry formation and became qualified, and we did not. So, good for them, at least someone is stepping up. The fact that I don’t like it their presentation of the faith doesn’t mean much if I sit on my hands.
We are still waiting for “Father” to clean this mess up and tell everyone what Vatican 2 really means. We believe that if everyone just learned their catechism, we would be fine.
That’s not going to cut it. Faith is a personal adherence to Jesus Christ that is passed on from family to family, including the parish family. Faith is not merely adherence to a body of facts.
 
Well, the radicals didn’t so much “get involved” as stage a coup. But they are no longer in charge in most places. The seminaries have been reformed. Catechesis has been reformed. Liturgy has had the reform of the reform. The existence of EWTN and Catholic Answers along with many other positive Catholic media is evidence of the counterrevolution, although there are still a few aging holdouts. I can’t speak for other nations though.
 
Well, the radicals didn’t so much “get involved” as stage a coup. But they are no longer in charge in most places. The seminaries have been reformed. Catechesis has been reformed. Liturgy has had the reform of the reform. The existence of EWTN and Catholic Answers along with many other positive Catholic media is evidence of the counterrevolution, although there are still a few aging holdouts. I can’t speak for other nations though.
All good developments.
 
Why have radicals taken over parish catechesis and liturgy and music and etc…? How could they pull off this coup without guns and knives?
I will just add that they have not taken over my parish or diocese. In the years of their ascendancy, to counter them by getting involved in the parish or diocese would have been like telling an opponent of Fidel Castro, ‘you just need to get move involved in politics to make yourself heard.’ Didn’t work well for Castro’s opponents (still doesn’t), and didn’t work too well at the height of the progressive takeover of some dioceses.

But that is history, at least around here. I hope it is history throughout the Church. The fever and delirium has mostly passed. At least I hope so.
 
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