Since When Are Catholics Not Christians?

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I too want to change my screen name to “In 2nd Adam” instead of 2nd Adam. I’m not having much luck on that request.

Not saying I would change my name. Only that I understand some Catholics resentment towards it. Despite its origin and whatever connotations it may have within the anti-catholic ranks I kind of like the name. Perhaps in the same way that Protestants have come to use the term Protestant which, correct me if I am wrong, has a similar origin to that of the label Roman Catholic.

God bless you

 

[dianaiad]

I think this thread just begs the question “What do we do when a Protestant or other non-Catholic declares Catholics as not being Christian?”

I’ve heard this before myself, so I’d love to develop a strategy to defend myslef if and when it arises. And I’ve heard this from “former Catholics” as well, who should know better.

God Bless,
Snert

Yeah, I’d like to know that too, the next time a Catholic tells me that I am not a Christian.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Perhaps the “cultural/cafeteria Catholic” phenomenon has confused the issue for some people. There’s a non-trivial number of people who self-identify as “Catholic,” but pretty much reject basic tenets of Christianity (the creeds, moral teaching, etc.). There are Protestants like this as well, but they seem far likelier to disavow church affiliations altogether. Now, knowledgeable Catholics may understand that such a person isn’t Catholic in any meaningful sense. Protestant observers, though, aren’t really in a position to analyze his Catholic bona fides, but can certainly perceive that he’s no Christian. Hence some of the “Catholic <> Christianity” confusion.

I’ve since learned that they’re far–FAR–from representative, but nearly all the self-described Catholics I’ve met outside cyberspace are ignorant of (when not dismissive of) Nicene Christianity. Poor catechesis, I suppose. And of course, I’ve never lived anywhere with a significant Catholic community; nearly all the Catholics I’ve met are upper-middle class transient types who aren’t representative of the Church as a whole. Are such people more prone to this kind of irreligious faux-Catholicism? Dunno.

 

[HCTiger9704]

I think it depends on what defintion the person is going by. .

At dictionary.com, one defintion is “a member of any of certain Protestant churches” while another says “a person who believes in Jesus Christ”.

So are Catholic Christians? It depends on what defintion you are going by.

 

[elvisman]

Here’s the challenge. If we identify in something other than Christ, then we are saying there is something more than Christ. Jesus Christ is the Apex; we were saved to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. There is nothing more than that in the Christian life, because God is the greatest joy in all of eternity.

**And Jesus also said that you must belong to him.
There is no such thing as a "Lone Ranger" Christian - either you’re part of the Body or you’re NOT.
**
**Jesus identified himself with his Church so much that he equated himself with it. **Acts 9:4-5 emphatically says:

**He (Saul) fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” ****He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. **
Saul was persecuting the Church - not Jesus and yet Jesus said, "Why are you persecuting me?" He said this because he and his Church CANNOT be separated. We are the Body of Christ and he is the head (1 Cor. 12:12-27).

 

[Doxiemom]

let’s face it…

they are as wrong about this as some catholics who say protestants aren’t christian either.

It is all about pride. Pride of what you are not. Pride of what you are.

Pride is a sin.

 

[BabyFang]

I requested a name modification with the administrator to “In 2nd Adam” a week ago. I think the biblical name of disciples of Christ is Christian. I don’t think the early Christians were called Catholics, do you?

The early Christians were not originally called Catholics, and their religion was not originally called Christianity but “the Way.” Despite the name, the first Christians were Catholics, and until Martin Luther they needed no distinctions from other Catholics.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Because I aim to make other Catholics angry.

When I converted I was “knee deep” in the Church’s history and every history book that I read told me that it was the “Roman Catholic Church”. So when I chose the name (was it really almost 4 years ago ) that was all I knew it by.

It was only after coming here and then reading on the history of the term’s origin that I realized why Catholics may not like the term too much.

God bless you

I generally call myself Roman Catholic as well, because I am loyal to His Holiness Benedict XVI and before him John Paul II of Blessed Memory. I know Catholics who feel free to ignore the Pope and so I identify myself as ROMAN Catholic so that they will know where I stand.

 

[BabyFang]

No one should be ashamed to be ROMAN Catholic.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Besides, you can’t love an institution like you can love a person. The Catholic Church as an institution, even the one Christ gave us in his physical absence, is no substitute for Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit. I love my Church, but nothing, and I mean NOTHING, compares to God in all of His Glory.

Snert:

When you love the Church you are loving Christ’s Body. Would a man say to his wife, I can’t love your body the way I love you. (Maybe, after all everybody knows he married her for her mind ) To love the Church is to love Christ.

 

[gnoa]

Catholics are Christians. The terms are often used synonymously by those that are educated enough or not biased to realize that Catholics are Christians. We know from ancient texts that some early Christian communities identified with the name Catholic, by at least 128 CE, to distinguish Orthodox Christianity around bishops from other groups, like Gnostics. One must keep in mind that the early Christian church, while in fear of the various persecutions that came and went in waves, used oral tradition, ordained leaders, and the various writings floating around the Roman Empire. Other formal “Christian groups,” those not recognizing the Pope but held to the tenets established at the councils prior to their departure from Rome, started in the fifth century and ended in 1054CE with the Great Schism, the split of the East and West. Protestantism, which did not come around until the 16th century, did more than separate itself from Rome, but created its own set of doctrines while ignoring or disavowing many Catholic doctrines. It is easy to call Luther, Calvin, Knox, and other reformers and their flocks as heretics because they were Catholics that went against the Church. It is erroneous to call those that are raised in a Protestant denomination as heretics, even though they hold heretical views, because they were not Catholic; however, one must consider this: If Christianity is defined by Christians, Catholics, through the Christian councils, then those not following the Christian councils cannot define themselves as “true Christians” since they do not hold to the tenets established by the various Ecumenical Councils.

 

[pismopal]

Personally, I think it is an insult to Christ when we identify with our particular church before identifying with Christ in name, mind and in heart. We have to be very careful to not make our particular church an idol over an above our love and affection for God alone. I see this tendency in Protestants and Catholics alike.

I hope you aren’t offended but I fear you will be…the Church ( and many believe there is only one… founded by Christ ) is the BODY of Christ. I had to mull that over for decades before I went home. In other words Christ is not offended by our devotion to the Church…He left the Church for us and I for sure am thankful to be in Her arms…as undeserving as I am…and you are always welcome there too

 

[pismopal]

Perhaps the “cultural/cafeteria Catholic” phenomenon has confused the issue for some people. There’s a non-trivial number of people who self-identify as “Catholic,” but pretty much reject basic tenets of Christianity (the creeds, moral teaching, etc.). There are Protestants like this as well, but they seem far likelier to disavow church affiliations altogether. Now, knowledgeable Catholics may understand that such a person isn’t Catholic in any meaningful sense. Protestant observers, though, aren’t really in a position to analyze his Catholic bona fides, but can certainly perceive that he’s no Christian. Hence some of the “Catholic <> Christianity” confusion.

I’ve since learned that they’re far–FAR–from representative, but nearly all the self-described Catholics I’ve met outside cyberspace are ignorant of (when not dismissive of) Nicene Christianity. Poor catechesis, I suppose. And of course, I’ve never lived anywhere with a significant Catholic community; nearly all the Catholics I’ve met are upper-middle class transient types who aren’t representative of the Church as a whole. Are such people more prone to this kind of irreligious faux-Catholicism? Dunno.

I get your point and I am sensitive to it also as I am a convert. No…I don’t think Catholics are any more prone to " irreligious faux" christianity than any other non Catholic believer BUT, that being said, Catholics have a real Church with beliefs written down for all to see…codified and sanctified and verified. Brought to us in Word and Tradition from the earliest believers…the real thing. The truth is not relative to who believes and how fervently they believe…the truth is not relative to anything we can do…it stands alone. The body of religious believers can wear white shirts…be honest…not curse. go on missions…go to their assemblies…well, religiously…give money…yada yada and they do not make truth. On the other hand…a bad priest or Pope…a Catholic who lies and steals also does not make truth…nor do they take it away…they just wound Christ.
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ for His followers…if that is not the truth then I say it would all be bunk and not worth our time.

 

[Snerticus]

Snert:

When you love the Church you are loving Christ’s Body. Would a man say to his wife, I can’t love your body the way I love you. (Maybe, after all everybody knows he married her for her mind ) To love the Church is to love Christ.

In a way you are correct. But sure, I can imagine a man or woman loving their spouse but not necessarily loving the body they come in. But even though they don’t love their body doesn’t diminish their love for the person as a whole. After gaining weight these last few years, I certainly don’t love my own body. Why? Well for starters because it’s not yet glorified, but mostly because my own sin has detracted from it’s natural beauty. Over indulging in food has caused some serious setbacks. Just as in over indulging has causes some serious setbacks in the Body of Christ here on earth. It’s kind of tough to have a perfect love while we are still here on earth. Yet our love in our hearts for Christ can be perfected while we are still on our journey toward everlasting life. Just look at the Saints - many of them didn’t necessarily love the state of the Church Militant while they were here on earth, yet their love for Christ was perfected as they reached the end of their journeys.

What it sounds to me like your saying is the Church IS God. That would make it the fourth part of the Trinity. And I don’t think you mean that.

I do love the Church, just like I love my parents. It’s just we weren’t created to love the Church… we were created to love God.

God Bless,
Snert

 

[Marsha_Adams]

What it sounds to me like your saying is the Church IS God. That would make it the fourth part of the Trinity. And I don’t think you mean that.

No, I am not saying the Church is the fourth part of the Trinity. I am saying that the Church is the body of the Second Person of the Trinity. The only difference is, that your wife could not survive in this world without her body, and Jesus can survive in this world without His body. Does that mean that the Church is part of the Trinity?

 

[Snerticus]

No, I am not saying the Church is the fourth part of the Trinity. I am saying that the Church is the body of the Second Person of the Trinity. The only difference is, that your wife could not survive in this world without her body, and Jesus can survive in this world without His body. Does that mean that the Church is part of the Trinity?

No, but you made is sound like I was wrong to love Jesus more than the Church. I thought you were trying to make it as though we should love both equally. Doing so would be like equating the Church with God (ie. putting it on the same level as the Trinity). Only God deserves enough love for adoration.

Besides, I was trying to make a point with a non-Catholic. I don’t think we should get into nuances when we are trying to get a non-Catholic ro understand Catholic thinking. Doing that would surely confuse them if not confirm errant suspicions they may have. If I was trying to make a point to another Catholic, I would have used different wording and most likely different examples.

Snert