since when did we use wafer for the eucharist?

[figs]

Except that grape juice did not exist in the First Century, not sure about other forms of wine.

Anyway, if you will be insistent that is must be only unleavened bread, then you have went against the Church herself, who said that leavened bread is in fact valid matter. You would have gone against the early Latin Church who also used leavened bread for a time.

I mean, you’re right, whats the argument here? These are historical facts (regarding the use of leavened bread). How it came about to be, we don’t know.

Oh, and before you point to Scripture as proof of what bread was used in the early Church, note that the Bible did not exist for another couple hundred of years. Fact is out of tradition we have Churches using leavened bread from the beginning. I don’t know how do we argue against that.

Well, with respect, of course, I’m going to agree to disagee. I haven’t seen any evidence to convince me to reject what I have been taught for 50 years.

Thank you for your time and efforts and may God bless you

 

[figs]

I made no statement as to who was wrong or right. I agreed to disagree and further added I saw no evidence to convince me to reject what I had been taught.
But I did thank him for his time and efforts since I did ask him to help me understand his position.
Thank you for your post though, and may God bless you

 

[Lochias]

Guys, thank you so much for your answers!

I actually posted this question because of the accusation that the Living Church of God hurls against the Catholic Church. Its just one of many but they say that we strayed away from the original teachings of Christ and the apostles when we used the round, flat, and white wafer host instead of the round wheaten loaf used in the days of Jesus Christ and the early church. This round host, they say, was used by the Egyptian occultists who serve the sun-god Osiris who, in turn, becomes present in the host. I find that preposterous of course but it made me wonder when the Catholic Church actually started using the wafer for the Eucharist.

I’ve read this Egyptian nonsense in one of Jack Chick’s tract books before. The Living Church of God should crack open a history book or three instead of shooting their collective mouth off about things that they understand very, very little about.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’ve read this Egyptian nonsense in one of Jack Chick’s tract books before. The Living Church of God should crack open a history book or three instead of shooting their collective mouth off about things that they understand very, very little about.

Even if it were true, the use of those “Egyptian wafers” would have only been isolated to the Roman Church and not the entire Catholic Church. The Byzantine and Alexandrian Rites at least has not resorted to using wafers, ever. So such accusations of pagan origins are false, although the “technology” or “technique” or making bread may have been copied, who knows.

 

[figs]

Again I, respectfully, maintain my possition. There is nothing I have seen here to convince me to reject what I have been taught.

Thank you. God bless you.

 

[BertBlyleven]

Some say leavened was used exclusively from the beginning, some say unleavened, some say both, some say it switched to leavened simply because some falsely preached only unleavened bread can be used, etc. Likewise, some say the Eucharist was recieved on the hand up until the 9th century, some say 3rd, some say never, some say 11th century, etc. My point is people will believe what they want to believe and find facts or “facts” to defend themselves.

 

[Alfonsus]

Some say leavened was used exclusively from the beginning, some say unleavened, some say both, some say it switched to leavened simply because some falsely preached only unleavened bread can be used, etc. Likewise, some say the Eucharist was recieved on the hand up until the 9th century, some say 3rd, some say never, some say 11th century, etc. My point is people will believe what they want to believe and find facts or “facts” to defend themselves.

It only shows how obscure in history the question is.

What we know for sure, now at this moment, is that the use of unleavened bread in the Latin Catholic Church is normative, while the use of leavened bread in the Eastern Catholic Churches are normative (with some exception). Both received by the Catholic Church as valid matter, stated in Canon Law.

Are the whole Church used unleavened bread only since the beginning? Or use Leavened? Or used both as long as it is bread? We don’t know for sure, the scholars and historians are not sure themselves.

I myself think, that the early church used both. The breaking of bread in the Christian believer’s house were done every day and may be used any available bread. The importance regarding what bread Jesus used during last supper did not have high significance for the infant Church. Perhaps that is why, while there is detailed instruction for Baptism such as recorded in the Didache, there is no detail prescription regarding the use of leavened/unleavened bread in the early Church… until the azyme controversy broke out.

For me it is of historical interest only, and have no theological weight.

 

[UGottaBKiddn]

**Forgive me, but the real reason leavened bread was used in the early Church is that it represented the “Risen” Christ. ** The word for bread used in the NT at the Last Supper even indicates leavened bread.

However, even if Christ used leavened bread for the Passover meal (if it was a Passover meal, that is disputed), the NEW Passover is Christ, who is Risen from the dead. The early Church thus used leavened bread so as to distinguish Her “Pascha” (Passover, from death to life) from that of the Jews which with the coming of Christ was “dead.”

P.S. Sorry for the “name”…it kept rejecting all my other picks.

 

[UGottaBKiddn]

How do I reply to a specific person??? Just joined.

 

[UGottaBKiddn]

**Forgive me, but the real reason leavened bread was used in the early Church is that it represented the “Risen” Christ. ** The word for bread used in the NT at the Last Supper even indicates leavened bread.

However, even if Christ used leavened bread for the Passover meal (if it was a Passover meal, that is disputed), the NEW Passover is Christ, who is Risen from the dead. The early Church thus used leavened bread so as to distinguish Her “Pascha” (Passover, from death to life) from that of the Jews which with the coming of Christ was “dead.”