Since when do we call priests presiders?

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Dear Rosalinda,
The publisher, Novalis, is a partnership between Saint Paul University and Bayard Presse Canada. We have just emailed one of the editors with our complaint; however I wanted some feedback in this forum before contacting our local bishop and all the other administrative staff of Novalis. What would you say? Can anyone put their finger on exactly what is the problem of referring to our priests as mere “presiders”?

You are writing the bishop because somebody printed the word Presider in a missalette? What do you think the Bishop will do, make them publish a retraction – mea culpa? OTOH, you are not concerned to write about a priest in a mouse costume? Yes, I think there is some misplaced nitpicking going on.

But if you knew me well, you would know I always try to see the other side of the story, and since I do not know what really took place, or the special circumstances that surrounded this homily, I will have to avoid passing judgment.

For instance, did he remove his priestly vestment during mass, and put on the costume for the homily? Or perhaps was this was an associate pastor who was not the celebrant of the mass, but gave the homily? Or maybe it was not at a mass at all, but a gathering of some sort where he preached. You left a lot unsaid, and too often I have come across stories where something innocent was greatly misinterpreted by another.

Carole
 
Special Thanks to both fix and buffalo …

… for providing the following quote from Pope John Paul the Great: “The priest, therefore, is not just one who presides, but one who acts in the person of Christ.”

That quote’s now been posted in this thread three times, but at the risk of being called a nitpicker, I feel it bears repeating. IMHO, being in agreement with Pope John Paul II on this matter …one that he felt was worthy enough of offering his comment on … puts me in good company. 🙂

And as Rush Limbaugh, who presides over an enormously successful talk radio show, would say: “Words mean things.”
:cool: 👍

~~ the phoenix
 
We’ll know things are bad when the Priest is called the facilitator.:bigyikes:
  • Kathie :bowdown:
 
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Rosalinda:
Our new missalette “Living with Christ” is using the term “the presider prays quietly” instead of simply stating “the priest”. Last night my father confronted the priest after the Eucharistic Liturgy because he was so upset and our parish priest had no problem calling himself a “presider”. I feel my father’s instincts are correct; there is a hidden agenda at work here.

The publisher, Novalis, is a partnership between Saint Paul University and Bayard Presse Canada. We have just emailed one of the editors with our complaint; however I wanted some feedback in this forum before contacting our local bishop and all the other administrative staff of Novalis. What would you say? Can anyone put their finger on exactly what is the problem of referring to our priests as mere “presiders”?
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When people wanted to challenge the idea of the Mass as Sacrifice.
 
the phoenix:
And as Rush Limbaugh, who presides over an enormously successful talk radio show, would say: “Words mean things.”
:cool: 👍

~~ the phoenix
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I agree. Words have a gradual and lasting impact. Over time, they can help either sensitize us or de-sensitize us. Not to get off topic, but use as an example the term ‘Lay Ecclesial Minister’. The use of the word ‘minister’ raised strong concerns with some U.S. Bishops since it has always implied ordination - a person set apart due to his reception of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Relaxing the use of that word, in my opinion, to apply to lay people who do service to a parish will eventually relax the view of the ministerial priesthood; maybe not consciously, but yes, over time I think it will. I think we see this happen today when in some parishes the altar is more often referred to as a ‘table’. The sacredness starts to slip away, due in part to the use of a ‘word’. Doesn’t ‘chalice’ stir more respect in your soul than ‘goblet’? But aren’t both technically correct in terms of the vessel they describe?

I personally prefer the term priest over presider whenever possible. Yes, he is a presider, but he is foremost a priest in the order of Melchizedek and the implications that it has to be a man and it has to be an ordained man and that he offers sacrifice are more implied by the use of ‘priest’.
 
Dear Elzee,

Hail and well met! 🙂

Your examples are all good ones. Thanks for providing them along with your eloquent explanation.

Here’s another parallel, appropriate to the season. Substituting the generic “presider” for the more majestic “priest” can be likened to substituting the generic “Happy Holidays” for the more majestic “Merry Christmas.”

My grandfather, as an aside, prefers saying “Holy Christmas” or “Blessed Christmas” over “Merry Christmas.”

~~ the phoenix
 
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puzzleannie:
it is usually used by those who have an agenda, generally revolving around the ordination of women.
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Would you care to provide some reasonable reference that can show that?

I haven’t read everything the USCCB has produced, but I would be surprised if the term presider is not used by them also. I believe that the fact that liberals may use a term does not mean that the term is a liberal term, or that there is any agenda afoot.

People who have an agenda re: ordination of women use a lot of terms, including Mass, the Bible, liturgy… the list is endless.

The term may also be used widely by those who do not have the agenda.
 
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BillyT92679:
Presider is a word that modernists use to minimize the sacrosanct nature of Holy Mass.
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it might be better if you actually do some research as to what Modernism is really all about, since it was a philosophy of the late 19th century, spilling over into the early 20th century. we have gone through any number of “isms” since then.

Too many people use the term Modernism to mean anything they don’t like, particularly if they feel it is liberal. That is an abuse of the term Modernism.
 
I believe that the word presider is used since the 2nd century. Saint Justin martyr used a form of it, “President”, when he spoke of the early christian liturgy.

“And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.”
 
I have used the term before, albeit rarely. I thought it was a simple term to distinguish between the main priest celebrant and the other priests concelebrating. I also thought it referred to the main chair. It need not be proof of an agenda.

So much more is seen in our words than we suspect!
 
Hi Phoenix,
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You:
“The priest, therefore, is not just one who presides, but one who acts in the person of Christ.”
That quote’s now been posted in this thread three times, but at the risk of being called a** nitpicker**, I feel it bears repeating.
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I guess since I’m the one who used the word, that your post was indirectly aimed at me, in part. For the record, I do not advocate the word Presider, in fact I never use it. Many times as a lector, I have said before mass began, “Father so-and-so is our Celebrant.”

Rosalinda’s post #19 showed EWTN’s answer to this question: “The liturgical documents speak frequently of the one who presides, though “presider” is not itself used. However, it is simply a nominative form. Unless some agenda seems to be at work, I would not get hung up on the use of this term.” Maybe I should have used EWTN’s less obvious wording, “I would not get hung up on it,” instead of nitpicker. Either way, isn’t it truth?

My main purpose was to defend others who innocently use the word, since we know it was in use in the past. They have a right not to be rashly judged as having an agenda, when the accusers do not know the intent in their heart.

Also for the record, I have many times publicly defended priests who are debased when someone finds a problem with what they said, did, or did not do. They are “alter Christus” — the Lords’ anointed, deserving of full respect in spite of their real or alleged failings. So I know well what you posted, that they are “one who acts in the person of Christ.”

Kind regards,
Carole
 
As a Canadian my attitude has radically altered ever since same-sex marriage became the law of the land; words have meaning and have been intentionally used to alter our consciousness as tools of propaganda. While the ssm debate was raging comment after comment reiterated, “How does this affect you? It’s none of your business. Nothing is going to change. Stop being so judgemental.”

What happened almost overnight so quickly and so quietly that most are still unaware anything has changed? In my home province, Ontario bureaucrats carefully combed through all our statutes and replaced husband and wife with the more politically correct term spouses. Widower and widow met the same fate; as did “a man and a woman” which were replaced with “two persons.”

lifesite.net/ldn/2005/feb/05022511.html

Placed within this historical context we do well to be more vigilant even at the risk of being called nitpickers. Patrick’s citation from St. Justin Martyr used the term “common assembly” for what is popularly known as the Mass. How many Catholics today would welcome that anymore then we welcome the term “presider” for priest? The sensibilities of the faithful should be respected and elitists shouldn’t be introducing new language which is going to disrupt the prayers of the ordinary people and break their concentration when they come to participate in the Most Sacred Mystery of the Eucharist.

Is it too much to expect our priests to be called priests? Is it too much to expect our priests to dress like priests and not entertainers especially for the Most Sacred Mystery of the Eucharist? If they call themselves presiders and dress like mice who can blame parishionners for asking if they are still in a Catholic Church?

As for what father wears underneath his mouse costume to celebrate Christmas JoySong I don’t care to ask.
 
Dear Rosalinda,

I truly empathize with you, for many times I feel as you do. But in practical terms, our words of admonishment often have little ability to change someone who is steadfast in their beliefs, and only serves to further antagonize and alienate them.

If you read any of my posts whatsoever, you might find how grieved I am by this division in the Church, and I have posted far more than I ever dreamed I would be involved with, yet the proof is in the pudding — very few, if any, have been moved to change their previous opinion, in spite of links to authentic church documents.

St. Teresa of Jesus agonized at the division caused when Luther’s protest was circulated in her very lifetime, with the loss of many souls who left the church. Her remedy? Not words or letters, but a reform that she began specifically to pray for priests and the Church, so that these divisions may cease.

I’m beginning to think my efforts have been ineffective, also, and perhaps the Lord is bringing me me to the same conclusion as our Saint. Words, proofs, patience in teaching, do not have power to do as much as prayer and penance. For the sake of the few are openminded, I do not regret my labors.

“When an intelligent man hears words of wisdom, he approves them and adds to them; the wanton hears them with scorn and casts them behind his back.” (Sir. 21:15)

Kind regards,
Carole
 
Dear Rosalinda,

I did not notice this when I posted just now, but it is still not clear to me what you meant to say.
Is it too much to expect our priests to dress like priests and not entertainers especially for the Most Sacred Mystery of the Eucharist? If they call themselves presiders and dress like mice who can blame parishionners for asking if they are still in a Catholic Church?
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As for what father wears underneath his mouse costume to celebrate Christmas JoySong I don’t care to ask.
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Are you saying he wore the mouse costume for the entire celebration of the Mass? That was what I asked you, whether he removed his chasuble and donned the costume for the homily, then removed it and put the chasuble back on to finish the mass?
Or was it during a mass at all that he did this, and not at some other type of gathering, as for children at CCD or something similar?
Carole
 
Dear Rosalinda,

You make some incredibly valid points in your post of 10:24 a.m. this morning. I completely understand how you are following your conscience to point out this matter of the use of the term “presider” to your bishop. Know that you have my prayers and moral support. God bless your efforts! 👍

Dear Carole,

For the record, my day job as a technical writer requires that I be what might be called a nit-picker when it comes to the precise use of language, right down to the nuance of a single word. In fact, I have jokingly referred to myself as something even worse! My boss, bless her, prefers to use the term “eagle-eye review” when it comes to what I do.

Case in point. Our translator in California felt it necessary to personally spend the money to call me long distance in Ohio just to confirm that we really had changed the word “LOCKED” to “LOCK” in an original English sentence and graphics callout. His concern was that such a change would render translation awkward in Spanish, Italian, French, and German, and should the wording in the body of the text really match the callout?

Why are we so fussy, hung up, nit-picky, or eagle-eyed about every single word we use in the processing instructions for our medical equipment? Because if a patient becomes sick or even dies as a result of a nurse or medical technician incorrectly understanding the written instructions, my company could potentially be held responsible. Over and above of course the far more important concern that we do not want anyone suffering any harm whatsoever!

IMHO, if we in the secular world take such care over the precision of terms, how much more vigilant should we be when it comes to the spiritual? This is not to say that we rash judge anyone’s use of a term. Heck, for years I thought nothing of using “Happy Holidays” interchangeably with “Merry Christmas.” It’s only recently, now that people are making an issue over which term is better, that I’ve chosen to vocally express a preference in favor of “Merry Christmas.” Not because I have a hang up, not to judge anyone who uses “Happy Holidays,” but simply to let people know where I stand. Simply, standing up and being counted.

Same thing with the use of the term “presider.” It’s perfectly possible to critique the worth of the word “presider,” as Pope John Paul II did, without rash judging anyone who uses the term, and without being hung up on it.

Thanks for your conversation, Joysong it’s nice talking with you. 🙂

~~ the phoenix
 
Rosalinda,

Since at least the time of St. Ambrose the term “presider” has been around. He uses it in reference to Jesus who is the Presider (Letter LXIII).

Deacon Ed
 
Dear Phoenix,
Same thing with the use of the term “presider.” It’s perfectly possible to critique the worth of the word “presider,” as Pope John Paul II did, without rash judging anyone who uses the term, and without being hung up on it.
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I support that type of critique wholeheartedly. The type that seems unacceptable to me is labeling anyone who innocently or unknowingly failed to use a more favorable term, as having a hidden agenda, and receives a judgment such as :tsktsk: .

You understand the difference, I’m sure … And in know way did I mean to imply that you were the person(s) who uses this manner of critique. Your job requires the correction and proper use of words, and I thank you for sharing your good points. Not many of us are required to be such strident correcters, but when we do, I pray it is with the same meekness as Pope John Paul II. :yup:

Carole
 
the phoenix:
IMHO, if we in the secular world take such care over the precision of terms, how much more vigilant should we be when it comes to the spiritual? This is not to say that we rash judge anyone’s use of a term. Heck, for years I thought nothing of using “Happy Holidays” interchangeably with “Merry Christmas.” It’s only recently, now that people are making an issue over which term is better, that I’ve chosen to vocally express a preference in favor of “Merry Christmas.” Not because I have a hang up, not to judge anyone who uses “Happy Holidays,” but simply to let people know where I stand. Simply, standing up and being counted.

Same thing with the use of the term “presider.” It’s perfectly possible to critique the worth of the word “presider,” as Pope John Paul II did, without rash judging anyone who uses the term, and without being hung up on it.

Thanks for your conversation, Joysong it’s nice talking with you. 🙂

~~ the phoenix
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I’ve done some technical writing in the past myself…funny how the concepts permeate other areas of our lives…!! I’ve had the term ‘extremely thorough’ used instead of ‘nit-picky’ - that and ‘eagle eye’ sound so much better! 😃

Up until a couple years ago I would say “Happy Holidays” too without a second thought. Starting last year I made a conscious effort, like you, to say ‘Merry Christmas’. I also try to say ‘I’m going to Mass’ instead of ‘I’m going to Church’. ‘Mass’ is much more than a church service. I remember Fr. Groeschel saying he winces everytime he looks through community newsletters and the Catholic Mass is listed under the same heading as all other ‘Worship Services’.

I know the word ‘presider’ has been around since the 2nd century, maybe before, and like Carole says, we shouldn’t assume everyone using this term has a ‘hidden agenda’ (although we also have to admit some do). I certainly didn’t when I used the term ‘holiday’ instead of ‘Christmas’. I just subconsciously got used to people saying it and I unthinkingly started saying it too. That’s why, even though the word may be correct, we need to think about the implication of the words we use, and decide whether it is watering down the importance of what we’re talking about. To me, it all ties in with the Pope’s warning against relativism…there are still absolutes in this world, and how we communicate and describe the spiritual aspect of our lives has an impact - however gradual that impact may be.
 
  • nods good greetings to Joysong * 🙂
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Elzee:
I know the word ‘presider’ has been around since the 2nd century, maybe before, and like Carole says, we shouldn’t assume everyone using this term has a ‘hidden agenda’ (although we also have to admit some do).
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Exactly, **Elzee! ** (You’ll notice I increased the size of some of your words in order to add emphasis.)
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Elzee:
I also try to say ‘I’m going to Mass’ instead of ‘I’m going to Church’. ‘Mass’ is much more than a church service. I remember Fr. Groeschel saying he winces everytime he looks through community newsletters and the Catholic Mass is listed under the same heading as all other ‘Worship Services’. …

That’s why, even though the word may be correct, we need to think about the implication of the words we use, and decide whether it is watering down the importance of what we’re talking about. To me, it all ties in with the Pope’s warning against relativism…there are still absolutes in this world, and how we communicate and describe the spiritual aspect of our lives has an impact - however gradual that impact may be.
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  • nods agreement *
… So, you’re a fellow tech writer, Elzee? Small world, and well met! 🙂

~~ the phoenix
 
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