P
ProVobis
Guest
Define your universe.
- Status
T
triumphguy
Guest
The Roman Empire and the near east that wasn’t the Roman Empire, but had formerly been in the Greek Empire, or any learned people from the known world of the time.
That’s why Luke wrote in the Gospel in Greek, and why later books in the Jewish canon were written in Greek not Hebrew.
How come none of the scriptures were written in Latin?
How come the symbol for Christians was a fish?
Because ἰχθύς (Ichthys - Greek for fish) is an acronym for “Ίησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ”, (Iēsous Christos, Theou Yios, Sōtēr), which translates into English as “Jesus Christ, God’s Son, Savior”.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Then how did the Romance languages come about and gain so much prominence for two millennia? In fact, Spanish-speaking people alone outnumber English-speakers and vastly outnumber native English-speakers.
T
TuAutem
Guest
In point of fact, the Roman Empire was officially bilingual, with Latin the universally used official language in the Western Empire, and Greek in the Eastern Empire. There’s a good map here to show which territories were and were not concerned (though it doesn’t include the Latin-speaking province of Dacia, which was no longer held in the time pictured):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Theodosius_I%27s_empire.png
Greek had already become the common language in the East, following the conquests of Alexander the Great, so the pragmatic Romans simply adopted it to administer the Eastern empire rather than try to impose Latin. (Moreover, after the conquest of Greece, the elite Romans all learned Greek fluently as part of their education, just as Russian nobles in the 19th century spoke French.) So in Jesus’ milieu, being in the Eastern empire, Greek was the common language, and had been for centuries, even before the Romans showed up (their arrival is recounted in the books of the Maccabees, which incidentally were written in Greek). But Greek was never spoken in the Western Roman Empire (the occasional conversation at aristocrats’ dinner tables notwithstanding). There Latin remained the common language.
As it happens, I recently had the chance to visit the curator of the Oxyrhynchus Papyri at the Ashmolean museum in Oxford, and look at the collections there (a real ‘pinch me I must be dreaming’ moment for me!). This is a large collection of papyri manuscripts from Egypt, which was part of the Eastern Empire. While the large majority of the the manuscripts are in Greek, showing that it was far and away the common language, there were a small number in Coptic (the local language), and, even in Egypt, the heart of the Greek-speaking Eastern Empire, some were in Latin.
The one in Latin that I saw was a fragment of Virgil, written with oversized letters. From this we could conclude that it was a writing exercise–the Egyptian scribe was trying to learn Latin, because doing so would give him an advantage for his business, being able to write correspondence for the imperial government in the West as well.
All that to say that, while the Roman Empire did have two official languages, with Greek firmly entrenched as the language of the East, the Latin-speakers were still the ones in charge. (Until the late Empire, anyway, which ceased to be in any meaningful sense ‘Roman’ at all.)
D
Dave_Noonan
Guest
By the late 8th century, Latin had certainly died out as a spoken vernacular, being replaced by early forms of the Romance languages we know today. So “once upon a time” was indeed a long time ago!Once upon a time, latin was the common tongue of the western Europe, anyone there either can read latin, or can read nothing
my question though is, when do we have a considerable amount of intellectual, especially in the west, that may not necessary know latin?
I
IbnFiktur
Guest
I’m not even sure what we’re arguing about in this thread anymore!!!
Let’s go by time period:
Classical Rome: Latin is prominent throughout the Empire as the language of the Roman elite and administration. Vernacular languages in the empire are many and varied
Late Rome: Latin is prominent in the Western empire, but the Eastern empire has switched almost entirely to Greek as a language of culture and administration.
Early Middle Ages: The Byzantine (eastern) Empire is the foremost power in Europe. The Western Empire has fallen. For the most part, the barbarians on the European continent adopt Roman language and administrative customs. Gradual change leads these to become the “romance languages” (Italian, French, and Spanish).
High/Late Middle Ages: Latin is the language of the Western Church and the Western elite, though French is making headways as the new language of the Western European elite. Dante writes the Divine Comedy in Italian, and vernacular literature sees its beginning.
Early Modern Period: Due to advances in military technology, the discovery of riches in the New World, and the fall of the Byzantine Empire, Western European nations become the foremost powers of the world. In this way the Romance languages (particularly Spanish and French) spread throughout the world as the Spanish and French overseas Empires expand. This answers the question you posed above.
Romance languages were not terribly relevant as widely-spoken imperial languages until fairly recently. There is significant space between Latin-speaking Rome and the rise to prominence of France and Spain… about 1000 years in fact.
Not that I’m sure how this relates to “Traditional Catholicism” at all, haha. Languages and language families rise and fall with the fortunes of those peoples who use them. There is nothing particularly remarkable about any of this.
T
triumphguy
Guest
Vastly outnumber?
2 Spanish 387million 5.85%
3 English 365million 5.52%
And that’s not counting the millions who speak English in African countries, India and Pakistan.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population
India has 125,226,449 English speakers
Pakistan has 88,690,000
Nigeria has 79,000,000
etc etc.
T
triumphguy
Guest
What’s my point? I dunno.
I guess my point is that there was never a golden age when all of Christendom spoke, read, understood Ecclesial Latin.
Yes there was Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Empire, but that didn’t last more than a couple of generations, and never affected us Brits.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Agreed. I meant to throw in the % of Catholics among the Spanish-speaking and then follow up with some Spanish grammar that shows its closeness with the written Latin but as the previous poster noted it would add nothing to the point of the thread.What’s my point? I dunno.
T
triumphguy
Guest
Want a nice cuppa tea?
J
johnthebaptist1
Guest
Well to me, Latin still is around,the only think I see is that people have trouble following Latin in th mis lets. When I frist when to Latin Mass, I had a hard time following the Mass in the Latin Mislets,but know I do a lot better,also its in Engish on the oppsite side of thet page. I bebelive that some day it will be more noticed. In my Parish I see more coming to latin Mass.
- Status