Sinful by Nature?

[josephback]

Greetings all. Today my niece was baptized at a Lutheran Brethren Church, and the one baptizing mentioned her as “sinful by nature from conception.” My understanding is that this is the total depravity error of Protestantism, and that Rome along with the East teaches that man’s nature is and was created good, but is wounded by sin. On the other hand the words used seem to have an Augustinian ring(conceived in sin anyone?), and Augustine was a great Catholic saint. My niece is a bubbly one year old, and it’s hard to think of her as “sinful by nature.” Thoughts?

 

[Paragon468]

God, being infinitely good, is incapable of creating anything other than what he is. Thus, he cannot create a being with an inherently evil nature. The way I understand it, evil is an absence of God’s goodness rather than a completely different force. God is everything, therefore evil is nothing.

Humans are made in the image and likeness of God, meaning we have a capacity and desire to love. Therefore, we are good by nature. Original sin, however, leaves us with the stain of concupiscence, a liking and desire for sin. Perhaps the person administering the Baptism meant it like this but used less than perfect wording. Or perhaps they meant to say humans are inherently evil, in which case they were dead wrong. I can’t exactly speak for them though, and I don’t know much about Lutheran Baptisms.

 

[grannymh]

Greetings all. Today my niece was baptized at a Lutheran Brethren Church, and the one baptizing mentioned her as “sinful by nature from conception.” My understanding is that this is the total depravity error of Protestantism, and that Rome along with the East teaches that man’s nature is and was created good, but is wounded by sin. On the other hand the words used seem to have an Augustinian ring(conceived in sin anyone?), and Augustine was a great Catholic saint. My niece is a bubbly one year old, and it’s hard to think of her as “sinful by nature.” Thoughts?

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 396-411.
Links to Catechism
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

origin.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

 

[Bruincello]

our sin full nature is an earthly inheritance it is internal and psychological(that is why jesus says one can commit a sin just by thinking bad) hence what we think becomes what we do. and it recorded in our DNA as a habit. . We are not created with it … Mind you Adam was created and we are BORN from him not created. .so what was his and how he was we by default get to have. . . And that’s why jesus as a man had to comes and help change our way of thinking so we can get rid of sin ful nature of thought and more. .

 

[BertBlyleven]

Nature, grace, faith, redemption, etc are words that mean different things in Catholic and Protestant theology. That is why so many arguments on these things go nowhere.

When Catholics speak of nature, they mean more or less an essence. Human nature per scholastics is intellect+will. Human nature did not change after Adam’s sin, will not change when the soul is separated from the body, and will not change after the Resurrection. Our Lord inherited an immaculate human nature, but this human nature was not somehow substantially different from that of you and I; it was however unfallen, free from the stain of original sin.

When Protestants speak of nature in this case, they are speaking more of inclinations. Humans being inclined to sin from conception; this is not false. If they view man as having a human nature that is substantially different than our Lords due to an inclination to sin, then our Lord could not have redeemed man, for He had a substantially different humanity than sinful man. Protestants also generally reject the use of the term substance, so this really comes down to a battle of terminology and understanding the same words mean different things.

 

[BertBlyleven]

our sin full nature is an earthly inheritance it is internal and psychological(that is why jesus says one can commit a sin just by thinking bad) hence what we think becomes what we do. and it recorded in our DNA as a habit. . We are not created with it … Mind you Adam was created and we are BORN from him not created. .so what was his and how he was we by default get to have. . . And that’s why jesus as a man had to comes and help change our way of thinking so we can get rid of sin ful nature of thought and more. .

No, sinfulness has nothing to do with earthly inheritance, by which I’m assuming you mean the material world.

 

[Bruincello]

No, sinfulness has nothing to do with earthly inheritance, by which I’m assuming you mean the material world.

=BertBlyleven. .I do not understand your point. All that was given to adam is for all humanity on the Earth even the curse to die.

 

[BertBlyleven]

=BertBlyleven. .I do not understand your point. All that was given to adam is for all humanity on the Earth even the curse to die.

When you say earthly inheritance, it implies that sinfulness is linked to creation (matter) itself. Sinfulness did not come from the earth, but came from the intellect and will of man, which as a result resulted in the earth being subject to death. The continued inclination man may have to sin is not because of the nature of man, matter, or the earth. Does that make sense?

 

[Bruincello]

When you say earthly inheritance, it implies that sinfulness is linked to creation (matter) itself. Sinfulness did not come from the earth, but came from the intellect and will of man, which as a result resulted in the earth being subject to death. The continued inclination man may have to sin is not because of the nature of man, matter, or the earth. Does that make sense?

Ok I say earthly only because there is no other location but earth where sin was done the tree was on earth we were created from the earth and we die and go in the earth. In fact it is said that satan was cast down into the earth as well. I can not realy exempt the earth realy, from being the main player here too . .
Please no implications.