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frindro
Guest
Is it sinful to get a ride in a car with a person whom I expect will be playing stolen music on their car stereo?
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GerardMajella
Guest
I guess one of the questions that you might ask yourself is, “If this person steals music, what else would he steal?” Do you really want to associate with someone that is, after all, a common thief?
On the contrary, Jesus Christ associated with sinners of all types. Perhaps this is your opportunity to be a good influence on someone that is clearly engaged in the wrong kinds of behavior.
Don’t be confused - He stole the music, not you. You did not commit the theft, so you are not guilty.
You could confront him, stating that it is illegal to steal music, and that if he doesn’t return the music or destroy its contents and make restitution, then you can no longer accept car rides from him. If you wanted to play hardball, however, you could report him anonymously to the authorities.
Having had many a valuable stolen from me throughout my lifetime, I personally would confront him and give him straight talk about the immorality of stealing from others.
On the contrary, Jesus Christ associated with sinners of all types. Perhaps this is your opportunity to be a good influence on someone that is clearly engaged in the wrong kinds of behavior.
Don’t be confused - He stole the music, not you. You did not commit the theft, so you are not guilty.
You could confront him, stating that it is illegal to steal music, and that if he doesn’t return the music or destroy its contents and make restitution, then you can no longer accept car rides from him. If you wanted to play hardball, however, you could report him anonymously to the authorities.
Having had many a valuable stolen from me throughout my lifetime, I personally would confront him and give him straight talk about the immorality of stealing from others.
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AndrewA
Guest
You cannot prove that this person stole the music.
I would give him/her the benefit of the doubt.
Even if the CD was a re-writable CD perhaps this person just wanted to make sure that original did not get ruined.
Even if it is stolen, it’s not your fault.
Nobody made a big deal about songs stolen from the radio, back when tape recorders were in use. (not condoning this -just saying…)
I would give him/her the benefit of the doubt.
Even if the CD was a re-writable CD perhaps this person just wanted to make sure that original did not get ruined.
Even if it is stolen, it’s not your fault.
Nobody made a big deal about songs stolen from the radio, back when tape recorders were in use. (not condoning this -just saying…)
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MrAkirafication
Guest
Stealing music makes me lol
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GerardMajella
Guest
I wouldn’t downplay the seriousness of this behavior. Stealing can start out small, and gradually build into more serious thefts.
If he can justify stealing music, what about stealing from his employer? Or stealing from his family and friends? Where does it end? It doesn’t. Because if you can justify and rationalize petty theft, then you can easily rationalize and justify grand theft. Your friend is on a road that leads to no good, and you have an opportunity to stop him going down this path.
The Old Testament makes it pretty clear: Thou shalt not steal. It doesn’t say, “Thou shalt not steal, except in the cases of petty theft.”
I mean really, how much does it cost to download music these days? $1.00 per song, if that? There really is no excuse.
If he can justify stealing music, what about stealing from his employer? Or stealing from his family and friends? Where does it end? It doesn’t. Because if you can justify and rationalize petty theft, then you can easily rationalize and justify grand theft. Your friend is on a road that leads to no good, and you have an opportunity to stop him going down this path.
The Old Testament makes it pretty clear: Thou shalt not steal. It doesn’t say, “Thou shalt not steal, except in the cases of petty theft.”
I mean really, how much does it cost to download music these days? $1.00 per song, if that? There really is no excuse.
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bingbang
Guest
Downloading music illegally isn’t the same as stealing. Stealing involves taking someone from someone else, something that they no longer possess.
And even if this person was listening to stolen music, I can’t see how it would be sinful to be in the car.
Seriously, some of you guys need to stop worrying so much about outlandish things that you think could be a sin.
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MrAkirafication
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bingbang
Guest
This is a REALLY stupid argument. Downloading music does in no way lead to stealing actual objects from actual people that will be without the object afterwards. Come on now. This is about as silly as saying that eating meat could lead to cannibalism.
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GerardMajella
Guest
Au contraire. The music being downloaded is copyrighted and owned by the singer and/or the record producer. You are stealing from an artist that has devoted his or her entire life to producing music, and they are entitled to fair compensation for producing the song or songs.
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bingbang
Guest
But they aren’t out a physical product. It is different.
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Rascalking
Guest
I’m in to the independent metal scene, big time. In my younger days, I thought that music should be free, I did the Napster thing, etc. I was totally blind to this argument. Then I started my own artistic passion that I began to sell. It took me awhile, but I said to myself, “Geez, I work my tail off painting/sketching/drawing…I’d be sort of irritated if someone just stole my work and broadcasted it without premission.” Which is just what illegal downloading is!
Having said all that, it’s NOT a sin to go in a car ride with someone who may have stolen some music. You don’t know they did, so stop thinking about it. Remember their reputation.
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GerardMajella
Guest
Nonsense. Anyone that has studied criminology knows that most criminals start out conducting petty crimes that eventually lead to more serious crimes. It only through early prevention and intervention can this kind of criminality be stopped before it escalates.
Drug use is the same way. People start drinking, smoking. Then they test pot. If they continue, they will experiment further up the line into harder and harder drugs, such as crack and cocaine. Not everyone does this - granted – but heavy drug use starts gradually and builds. Few cocaine addicts have never smoked a cigarette or tried pot beforehand. Same concept.
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Pug
Guest
No.
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GerardMajella
Guest
Your argument doesn’t hold. Whether cash is exchanged for a service or a product, the laws against stealing remain the same. In this case, the product is a service – musical entertainment to be specific.
You can’t steal services. An attorney sells legal services, an intangible. Doctors sell medical services, an intangible. There are all kinds of intangible services in the marketplace that require compensation.
This example is no different. A musician is selling their musical entertainment services, and should be paid for the production of their music.
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bingbang
Guest
Could petty shop lifting lead to stealing bigger things…yeah, definitely. Would downloading music lead to stealing actual objects…no, definitely not. It isn’t even in the same category. It is like saying that jay walking leads to stealing. Technically both are criminal activities but they have nothing to do with each other. Same thing with junk food leading to drugs. Both are bad for your body, but junk food isn’t going to lead to drugs. Downloading music illegally in the privacy of your own home is completely different than actually going to a store or to someone’s house and stealing something.
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GerardMajella
Guest
Stealing is stealing. Whether you steal products, services, tangibles or intangibles, it’s still theft.
If you can rationalize stealing music online, then you can rationalize stealing money from your employer using a computer. Or hacking into a company’s computer system to steal credit card data to commit identity theft. You get the idea. It’s progressive in nature.
The only difference between stealing within the privacy of your home versus stealing in person is the manner in which the theft is committed from an operational standpoint. It’s still theft either way.
Just because you use a computer or technology to commit a crime doesn’t lessen the seriousness of the crime.
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bingbang
Guest
Let me explain the difference here. You steal money from a company, they literally lose money. You gain money that they lost. When you download music you could make the argument that you are stealing potential revenue from the artists, but that is only if you would have bought that music if you couldn’t get it free. Some guy got busted for putting the movie “the love guru” online and something like 100,000 people downloaded it. You don’t actually think that those 100,000 people would have bought the movie if they couldn’t have downloaded it for free, right? So really the people that downloaded it and wouldn’t have bought the movie didn’t effect the company’s bottom line.
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GerardMajella
Guest
I am not trying to be blunt, so excuse me if I come across as brash.
There is no explanation or justification that you can give me that will excuse stealing. God makes it crystal clear in the Old Testament that stealing is forbidden, regardless of the mechanism. (Even atheists would agree that allowing theft in a civilized society would be a bad idea.)
You state, “You don’t actually think that those 100,000 people would have bought the movie if they couldn’t have downloaded it for free, right?”:
Let me answer that question. If the movie hadn’t been widely distributed for free, some people may have purchased the movie, and perhaps some would not. Regardless, the number of buyers doesn’t really matter.
You can’t justify stealing based on whether people would or would not have purchased a movie if it were given away for free. You can’t say, “Hey, I wasn’t going to purchase this movie anyways, so I guess it’s okay to steal the movie via illegal download.”
Naturally, people would want to acquire a movie for free as opposed to paying for it, if they could do so. Who doesn’t want freebies? That’s not the question. The question is whether it is proper to steal the movie or not via illegal and immoral means (i.e., theft). That’s the question at hand.
Many musicians work their entire lives to have a single album or song hit the pop charts. They have sacrificed blood, sweat, and tears – not to mention relationships with family, friends, and lost opportunities elsewhere — to pursue their music career. Many musicians never make it big, and earn barely enough to stay afloat. They have spent countless hours perfecting their craft. They deserve to be paid for their work, if only out of a matter of social justice.
Again, you can’t justify stealing based on whether or not buyers would have hypothetically purchased the music or not. That’s not a justification for theft. There is no justification for theft.
Think about it. If you can justify stealing from a starving musician, you can certainly justify stealing from a rich person, or your employer. Where does it end? It doesn’t. Once you start rationalizing theft, stealing becomes all too easy to do. Why not steal from a corporation? Why not steal from your neighbor? It’s a slippery slope.
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logic_oriented
Guest
Except he just did justify pirating music, in a way that can’t be used to justify any of your other hypothetical thefts. Disagree with that justification if you like, but your slippery slope argument is nonsense.
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GerardMajella
Guest
Then answer the question: Where does it end? If it’s fine to steal, then how much can we steal and from whom? And under what circumstances? Do tell. These are not hypothetical examples, these are legitimate questions.
If you are telling me it’s fine and dandy to steal, then I would really like to hear your logical argument for doing so, and under what terms and conditions stealing is morally acceptable.
Who granted you, or anyone for that matter, the right to steal from anyone? Where is it written anywhere that stealing is acceptable? Illegally downloading music or movies from the Internet is just that…illegal. Why? Because it constitutes theft. Any judge or attorney will tell you the same.
The argument doesn’t hold any water, and doesn’t pass even the basic norms of logic nor morality, let alone legality. Stealing in any form – large or small — is universally recognized in all civilized societies as unacceptable and immoral.
According to your line of reasoning, it is perfectly acceptable and justified to steal from any musician, as long as it’s done online. Not only is this illegal, but it violates all norms of morality, whether the society is religious or secular.
And what about other intangible services? Should we skip out on paying our local dentist because he provided an “intangible service” and not a tangible product? What about attorneys? Can I skip out on paying my legal bills because the attorney’s services were intangible? Of course not. The argument that these are “intangible services” is pointedly ridiculous.
The musician created a product – a song, if you will – and copyrighted the song for international distribution. If you steal that song – online or in person – it constitutes theft. No two ways about it. Theft can’t be justified just because it’s done over a computer, or because you wouldn’t have bought the song if you had to pay for it.
Can I walk into a grocery store and steal food and justify it because I would never have purchased the food with my own money unless it was given to me for free? Of course not. The logic doesn’t hold. How is downloadable online music any different? Here’s a clue: It isn’t. Stealing in stealing. Period.
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