Sinful to use a vibrator?

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I hardly think so
(eaten in moderate quantities and assuming you aren’t using them to reach orgasm ).
Why would you think Twinkies are sinful?

It is sinful because it is unnatural to eat things that are not food,

 

[total_Catholic]

God did not create the sexual union between man and woman to have outside sources brought into it. Yes, it is a sin.

 

[crumblymunky]

wut

 

[bisco]

i believe saint john paul II had something to say about this. if the woman can’t reach climax, during intercourse, the husband can help her achieve this, and would be his duty in love. if that involves a mechanical stimulant, what difference does it make? i think it is important to note that some people, through over stimulation, believe that orgasm is unattainable otherwise. but patience and trust may prove otherwise over a significant amount of time.

 

[crumblymunky]

So, hypothetically, if a woman can have 10x more pleasure than a man in an orgasm, then… wouldn’t it be fair if a woman only achieved 1/10th of an orgasm? Since this seems to be what this thread is about: pleasure, and woman are known to have more pleasurable orgasms.

 

[bisco]

it is impossible to know if one person’s orgasm is more pleasurable than anothers.

 

[jmcrae]

That’s really not my impression of mainstream Catholic thought on women and sex. Please, someone reassure me!

How you play together during sex is nobody else’s business, as long as the unitive event takes place at some point along the way. Keep the bedroom door closed, is my advice.

 

[clem456]

It is sinful because it is unnatural to eat things that are not food,

Wow a rigid traditionalist

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Wow a rigid traditionalist

Pardon?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

While it might take many engagements of sexual intercourse for newlyweds that tends to come fast.

Talking about sex, sex positions, pleasure spots and many other things are morally licit to talk about for married couples.

Really, it isn’t that hard, major locations to stimulate are the breasts and the clitoris (has more nerves than your penis), also keep in mind whispering things into her ear helps it too.

I guess my friends who married early were at a moral advantage then? Because I learned about that without getting married, boo hoo for me huh? Damned if you have knowledge of sex without being married but you’re free to study the subject after tying the knot right out of high school.

Yeah. Seems legit.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I may have been the person in the other thread that started this conversation…

So let me just say that I cannot imagine an ACT that involves a vibrator and is not lustful. A lustful act is any sexual act that involves the pursuit of sexual pleasure over and above unity.

The awesomeness/pleasure of sex comes as a byproduct of the pursuit of marital oneness. Using a vibrator does not make two people one flesh, no more than anal sex makes two people one flesh.

We live in a sex-obsessed culture, where the thought of living without orgasm makes people inordinately upset. Manufacturing orgasm is not the solution. No one has a right to sexual pleasure; it is something we experience in the course of pursuing completely different goals, the goals of erotic desire. To go all 3rd-century on y’all: If anyone says that the end of erotic desire is pleasure, let him be anathema.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

As an aside, we’re in this situation because a bunch of celibates in the mid-20th century felt bad about women who didn’t regularly orgasm. They loosened the “rules” – as if these rules were up to them! – and thought of themselves as being kind. As a matter of fact, they helped Catholic culture to forget the real meaning of sex, which has nothing to do with pleasure.

As another aside, please don’t consider my comments holier than thou. I am no sexual innocent, far from it. But my experience has given me a keen sense of what lust is, and that sense is what motivates my discernment in the situation mentioned.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I may have been the person in the other thread that started this conversation…

So let me just say that I cannot imagine an ACT that involves a vibrator and is not lustful. A lustful act is any sexual act that involves the pursuit of sexual pleasure over and above unity.

Well, just because YOU cannot imagine it, does not mean it cannot happen.

I think it’s really quite easy for you, as a man, to say that a woman who does not “regularly orgasm” should just accept that, and that a woman who is dissatisfied with that, cares about the pursuit of sexual pleasure before unity.

The state of being aroused without achieving orgasm is often very uncomfortable. The whole “blue balls” issue is not merely one that affects men. There are also women who will NEVER orgasm from intercourse alone. All these women are supposed to just accept that? That God designed men to get pleasure out of intercourse 99% of the time, and therefore, a man having sex expecting to orgasm is not sinful, but a woman doing the same is? Sounds pretty sexist to me.

Also, if a married couple’s sex life is such that on a regular basis, a woman is regularly NOT getting pleasure out of sex, or if sex is actually uncomfortable to the woman (which being “left high and dry” often is), then how is this unitive? You also are completely leaving out the idea that it could be a loving act for the HUSBAND to bring his wife to orgasm.

I realize that you have had difficulty reconciling the Church’s “concessions to married couples” with the disapproval of same-sex genital acts, but although you are not a “celibate man”, you are still a man, and quite honestly, if you think a woman who desires orgasm is sinning, then I feel sorry for your wife.

ETA: Now, I’m sure there are couples who could not use a vibrator without slipping into lust, and certainly I don’t think they should DEPEND on a vibrator, but if you really think that women who cannot orgasm from intercourse alone just need to grin and bear it and continue to have sex simply for the sake of “unity”, then again, I feel sorry for your wife (unless of course she IS capable of orgasm from intercourse alone – but then I hope you never wind up remarried to a woman who isn’t).

On the other hand, I suppose that if all women took your take on married sexuality as gospel, then many of them would wind up in a similar state to some with SSA - unable to attain maximal sexual fulfillment without sinning, because God designed them that way. So I can see why this line of thought would be attractive to you.

 

[kozlosap]

As an aside, we’re in this situation because a bunch of celibates in the mid-20th century felt bad about women who didn’t regularly orgasm. They loosened the “rules” – as if these rules were up to them! – and thought of themselves as being kind. As a matter of fact, they helped Catholic culture to forget the real meaning of sex, which has nothing to do with pleasure.

As another aside, please don’t consider my comments holier than thou. I am no sexual innocent, far from it. But my experience has given me a keen sense of what lust is, and that sense is what motivates my discernment in the situation mentioned.

Thank goodness that the vast majority of Catholics believe that it is an awesome thing in (almost) 2015 that sex is now more about and less about being pregnant every 18 months. IMHO, if vibrators and other sexual aides designed primarily for women are not acceptable, then that little blue pill, Viagra, and the hysterical double bathtub pill, Cialis (Sp), should also be banned. We all KNOW, that situation will never happen!. LOL!

 

[Jeanne_S]

As an aside, we’re in this situation because a bunch of celibates in the mid-20th century felt bad about women who didn’t regularly orgasm. They loosened the “rules” – as if these rules were up to them! – and thought of themselves as being kind. As a matter of fact, they helped Catholic culture to forget the real meaning of sex, which has nothing to do with pleasure.

As another aside, please don’t consider my comments holier than thou. I am no sexual innocent, far from it. But my experience has given me a keen sense of what lust is, and that sense is what motivates my discernment in the situation mentioned.

For starters,sex isn’t meant to be pleasurable.Really? I can’t imagine why anyone would bother if it weren’t meant to be enjoyed. Considering sex is designed to be an expression of love between a husband and wife.Procration is a natural consequence of the experience.They aren’t mutually exclusive.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

To defend Prodigal Son, though I disagree with his apparent beliefs about women who wish to have orgasms through means other than intercourse, and I also find it odd that he thinks his personal experiences as a man make him qualified to discuss lust in women, I do NOT think he is stating that sex is meant to be solely for procreation. Just that, apparently, people should enter into sex acts thinking they want to express love and caring for the spouse more than they care about physical pleasure.

But again, it seems his thinking pattern is that “the Church would be hypocritical to approve of ANYONE getting sexual pleasure out of any means other than male-female intercourse, so if two men or two women can’t engage in sexual acts other than intercourse, then a heterosexual couple shouldn’t either! And if this means some women don’t achieve sexual pleasure the way they want, then welcome to the club, people with SSA can’t either!”

However, it seems that so far, he’s the only CAFer who thinks only male-female intercourse is acceptable and that any “marital aids” only serve people to be lustful. Which I do find reassuring.

(ETA: Well, I can think of another CAFer who believes this and thinks even touching the genitals with the hands is off-limits, even if these acts don’t lead to orgasm, but no one else seems to be that extreme.)

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Well, just because YOU cannot imagine it, does not mean it cannot happen.

I think it’s really quite easy for you, as a man, to say that a woman who does not “regularly orgasm” should just accept that, and that a woman who is dissatisfied with that, cares about the pursuit of sexual pleasure before unity.

The state of being aroused without achieving orgasm is often very uncomfortable. The whole “blue balls” issue is not merely one that affects men. There are also women who will NEVER orgasm from intercourse alone. All these women are supposed to just accept that? That God designed men to get pleasure out of intercourse 99% of the time, and therefore, a man having sex expecting to orgasm is not sinful, but a woman doing the same is? Sounds pretty sexist to me.

Also, if a married couple’s sex life is such that on a regular basis, a woman is regularly NOT getting pleasure out of sex, or if sex is actually uncomfortable to the woman (which being “left high and dry” often is), then how is this unitive? You also are completely leaving out the idea that it could be a loving act for the HUSBAND to bring his wife to orgasm.

I realize that you have had difficulty reconciling the Church’s “concessions to married couples” with the disapproval of same-sex genital acts, but although you are not a “celibate man”, you are still a man, and quite honestly, if you think a woman who desires orgasm is sinning, then I feel sorry for your wife.

ETA: Now, I’m sure there are couples who could not use a vibrator without slipping into lust, and certainly I don’t think they should DEPEND on a vibrator, but if you really think that women who cannot orgasm from intercourse alone just need to grin and bear it and continue to have sex simply for the sake of “unity”, then again, I feel sorry for your wife (unless of course she IS capable of orgasm from intercourse alone – but then I hope you never wind up remarried to a woman who isn’t).

On the other hand, I suppose that if all women took your take on married sexuality as gospel, then many of them would wind up in a similar state to some with SSA - unable to attain maximal sexual fulfillment without sinning, because God designed them that way. So I can see why this line of thought would be attractive to you.

While intercourse alone won’t suffice, clitoral and breast stimulation during sex very often will.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

First of all, ToeInTheWater, thank you for your charity in your most recent response. I certainly never said that sex isn’t meant to be pleasurable! Of course, it’s meant to be pleasurable, and pleasure is good. My point is about whether it is morally licit to *pursue *that pleasure for its own sake.

For point of comparison, scratching is extremely pleasurable, but I think it is bad for a person to scratch (though not, in every case, a matter of sin). Scratching makes a person want to scratch more. Seeking pleasure makes a person want pleasure more. Wanting pleasure more is a bad thing.

Also, you made a comment about my SSA affecting my view here. It does affect my view, but maybe not in the way that you think. I’m married, so I have a lot of first hand experience of marital sex. My experience involves exactly the case we’re talking about. For the first year of my marriage, my wife was not able to climax. She felt awful about it. She HATED being “amped up” without being able to peak.

I myself couldn’t blame anyone for doing “something more” to get a woman over the edge, in such a situation. But then again, I myself couldn’t blame an unmarried man – who spends tons of his life amped up in that way – for masturbating. The moral question, though, doesn’t have to do with whether I think less of a person for doing something. It has to do with whether doing that thing will make their lives more bountifully blessed and rich with virtue and wonder.

As emotional intimacy grew in my marriage, and as my wife felt safer and safer with me, she suddenly began to experience very powerful orgasms in the course of our lovemaking. If we had looked for “outside help”, in the form of vibrators and whatnot, I don’t think we would have ever gotten to the point we’re at now.

So in essence, I agree with you 100% that not having orgasms is something to be concerned about. We just disagree about what to do about that concern. I’m not sitting in judgment over those who have different moral opinions than me on this topic. I just disagree with them. I don’t think that we foster love THROUGH equalizing pleasure in a marriage. I think we equalize pleasure through fostering love.

So far as I can tell, not being able to achieve orgasm is a either a marriage problem (feeling/being unsafe, e.g.) or a health problem. I’m open to learning more about the issue, but that’s my best guess. We should treat the problem, either by improving marriages or improving a person’s health.

Well, just because YOU cannot imagine it, does not mean it cannot happen.

Your comment about my imagination may be apt. And please note that I never said that women need to peak from intercourse alone. I said that vibrators shouldn’t be involved; that’s all.

That God designed men to get pleasure out of intercourse 99% of the time, and therefore, a man having sex expecting to orgasm is not sinful, but a woman doing the same is? Sounds pretty sexist to me.

If a man has sex with the sole purpose of pleasure, then he is committing a sin. That point applies equally to men and women. I don’t see any sexism – unless you think God is sexist, because of how much easier it is for men. My own experience? Women have a much deeper and more holistic sexual experience than men. I love to experience this vicariously, through my wife.

You also are completely leaving out the idea that it could be a loving act for the HUSBAND to bring his wife to orgasm.

Surely it could be an act motivated by love! It usually is, I hope. Contraception is usually motivated by love too, as are any number of morally impermissible actions. These things have the right motivation, but they do not promote human flourishing.

…although you are not a “celibate man”, you are still a man, and quite honestly, if you think a woman who desires orgasm is sinning, then I feel sorry for your wife.

Because you assume we must have a miserable sex life?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

While intercourse alone won’t suffice, clitoral and breast stimulation during sex very often will.

And it’s fun for the man!

<moment of total embarrassment>

Seriously, lots of men just completely lack control, and lack the ability to please a woman. That was me, frankly, when I got married. I learned how to control *because *I loved my wife. Love comes first.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

…and thinks even touching the genitals with the hands is off-limits…

Now that’s nuts.