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CatMan
Guest
I was wondering if masturbation is consider a mortal sin?
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Aaron_I
Guest
Three things are necessary for a sin to be mortal:
- Grave matter
- Knowledge or firm belief that the act is seriously wrong prior to committing the act;
- Full consent of the will.
- Masturbation certainly qualifies as grave matter.
- I doubt a Catholic could consider masturbation not to be grave matter except through vincible ignorance. Basically that means that they would still be culpable because it was their responsibility to be aware of Church teaching on something that obvious. I suppose Invincible ignorance could be possible, but I find that unlikely.
- Sometimes a habitual action can subvert someone’s will, meaning that a habitual masturbator may not have full control of his will. This can reduce his guilt to being merely a venial sin. Of course, it is still highly recommended that someone in such a case go to confession upon committing the act as confession grants graces that can help prevent the sins someone struggles with.
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steve99
Guest
Aaron I.:
That something is included in a discussion under the heading of a particular commandment does not mean that it is specifically forbidden by that commandment, just that it is an appropriate place to include it because of the type of sin.
It would seem to me that masturbation, whilst sinful, is hardly of the same order as adultery, fornication or rape for example.
Is it grave matter? The catechism says that “Grave Matter is defined by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer Jesus gave to the rich young man” (ccc1578), and then lists them starting with Do not commit adultery. But masturbation is not adultery. I know that in the section on the Ten Commandments includes a discussion on this (ccc2252) under the heading “Offences against chastity” and says that it is “an intrinsically and gravely disordered action”. But this seems to contradict the previous statement since it is clearly (well to me) not what is forbidden by the sixth commandment.
That something is included in a discussion under the heading of a particular commandment does not mean that it is specifically forbidden by that commandment, just that it is an appropriate place to include it because of the type of sin.
It would seem to me that masturbation, whilst sinful, is hardly of the same order as adultery, fornication or rape for example.
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mercygate
Guest
According to *The Catechism of the Catholic Church, *it is “gravely contrary to chastity.” “Grave” is the term used in the *Catechism *for ‘mortal.’
**2396 **Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.
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Scott_Waddell
Guest
They are only different in the sense that they weaken or destroy the grace of more than one person. Destroying the grace in ones self alone is still a grave matter.
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steve99
Guest
Can you then explain how masturbation is against the 6th commandment?
As I said the catechism also in the section on mortal sins, says that grave matter is defined by the Ten Commandments (see CCC 1857/8 - not 1578 as in my previous post , don’t know where that number came from!). So to be a mortal sin it would have to be against the sixth commandment. But as I said it is not adultery. So it is not a mortal sin.
Perhaps the reconciliation of these two points is that it is gravely contrary to chastity, but chastity is not enjoined by the Ten Commandments, only adultery.
I get a feeling of deja vu over this argument (over what is and is not a mortal sin). Don’t think I got a resolution last time…
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mercygate
Guest
How about looking at it the other way around: It is a sin against the positive virtue of chastity.
Let’s take this to another commandment. Number Seven. As long as I do not actually kill someone in anger, then I have not violated the seventh commandment?
The Commandments are shorthand for the greater moral scope which each one encompasses.
And don’t forget Paul’s famous lists in Romans and Ephesians. Sins against chastity are a ticket to Hell. That’s “mortal.”
And are we not called to generosity? I am always perplexed at what appears to me to be adolescent moral niggardiness: “How close to the line can I get and still not sin?” “How little can I do and still have it count?”
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Mary
Guest
“Thou shalt not commit adultery”, just like “thou shalt not murder”, is not only that particular action, but those related, those that do the same damage to a particular gift God has given us… It is a grave sin to murder someone because of their dignity of person- they are created in God’s image. Not only is murder a sin, but hurting someone, or hurting ourselves… These are sins, you could say, against the dignity of the human person.
In the same way, what is sinful about adultery? We are misusing the gift of sexuality- the mysterious gift of becoming one with another person, and joining God in His creative works. With fornication, rape (which might also fall under the “shall not kill” commandment as it is injuring another person), and masturbation, we are again misusing this gift. Any sin against chastity, or against the gift of human sexuality, is grave. Masturbation has no good. Sex brings union, creation, intimacy, and pleasure together- with God directly involved (wierd eh? but it’s true… as I think Christopher West says- God won’t blush if you invite Him into your bedroom, He created sex). Masturbation separates everything good about sex… And most importantly, it doesn’t involve God.
Masturbation is a sin against our own bodies- which are temples of the Holy Spirit. St. Paul writes a good deal about sins against chastity, and their dangers. While there’s no commandment, “Thou shalt not masturbate”, it would be a mistake to imagine the sin is not grave. It’s directly connected to the sixth commandment.
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thistle
Guest
So under your argument of sticking to the actual Commandment (with no additions) murdering someone would be a mortal sin against the Fifth Commandment but attempting to murder someone would be a venial sin. Is that what you are saying?
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steve99
Guest
Yes!
What I’m trying to understand is how we (or rather the Church) decides what is a mortal sin and what is not.
The catechism clearly says that grave matter is defined by the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are very specific. You shalt not kill (or murder I understand is a better translation) is exactly that. That doesn’t mean that harming others is OK, it just means it’s not against the 5th Commandment.
Once we get into the commandments being a catch all for every sin, then every sin becomes a mortal sin.
The catechism atuially says that “The tradition of the Church has understood the sixth commandment as encompassing the whole of human sexuality.” (2336). So if this is followed then every sexual sin is a mortal sin. This would appear to be nonsense.
So how do we reconcile this?
On what basis can we define what is a mortal sin and what is not?
Is the original definition of grave matter being defined by the Ten Commandments faulty?
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Agricola
Guest
Hmm… maybe it would be good to think of why God gave us the Decalogue in the first place.
They are moral minimums. They were given to us as statements of the most basic principles. If your take a legalistic approach to them, you’re not getting it.
If you take the example of “Thou shall not murder”, you can see that it is not literal condemnation of all physical injury to human beings. It is not specific, it is general. That’s why there were only ten commandments written on two tablets instead of millions, detailing all possible sins. Can you imagine Moses carrying those down the mountain?
Think of it this way. The Decalogue is like a constitution… it is general so that more may be included in it than is stated explicitly. If you slap someone in the face, you had better have a good reason for it, or you’ve violated a law of God… a law based on one of the ten laws, and contained within it.
So, as Mary pointed out well in her post, refering to masterbation:
Mary:
God bless,
Agricola
They are moral minimums. They were given to us as statements of the most basic principles. If your take a legalistic approach to them, you’re not getting it.
If you take the example of “Thou shall not murder”, you can see that it is not literal condemnation of all physical injury to human beings. It is not specific, it is general. That’s why there were only ten commandments written on two tablets instead of millions, detailing all possible sins. Can you imagine Moses carrying those down the mountain?
Think of it this way. The Decalogue is like a constitution… it is general so that more may be included in it than is stated explicitly. If you slap someone in the face, you had better have a good reason for it, or you’ve violated a law of God… a law based on one of the ten laws, and contained within it.
So, as Mary pointed out well in her post, refering to masterbation:
… the same is true for violence. It is misusing the gift of life in the same way that masterbation is misusing the gift of sexuality. It is not called “killing”, but it is, in a way, just that.
God bless,
Agricola
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Mary
Guest
Why would is be nonsense that every sexual sin is a mortal sin? St. Paul reiterates the point when he writes: ** “Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.”** -1 Corinthians 6:18-20.
Do you think it’s nonsense because evading sexual sin is difficult? Because a lot of people commit sexual sins?
The seriousness of any sin against our bodies, against our sexuality, is such that they are mortal… Sexual sin is ALWAYS a “grave matter”. Of course that doesn’t make it easy to say no to sexual sin… We must look to the Sacraments, to prayer, to God’s Graces, for strength and courage.
God Bless.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Masturbation is a grave sin because as Holy Writ teaches, “***For all that is in the world, the ***lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16). And it is true that lust is against God’s commandments, because “***every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery ***with her in his heart.” (Matt 5:28)
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Scott_Waddell
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Here is the passage:
So the Ten Commandments do not define grave matter in the sense that it is limited to these ten and then only in the narrowest sense.
And as to what basis we determine masturbation is a grave matter:
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
From the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, Persona Humana ( 1975), approved and promulgated by Paul VI:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html
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steve99
Guest
So are you saying that an unmarried couple that indulge in some heavy petting or steamy kissing are committing just as serious a sin as a couple who engage in adulterous sexual intercourse?
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BlindSheep
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Aaron I.:
I think it is actually rather common. Lots of priests, religious ed teachers, etc. mislead people about such things. I think a Catholic who trusts his priest is not to blame for his ignorance, unless he is aware of the likelihood of priests giving advice contrary to church teachings, which many Catholics aren’t.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Not all mortal sins are equally grave. However, lust is a grave sin.
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steve99
Guest
I think they are since they all cut us off completely from God; they break our covenant with God and destine us to hell, unless repented of.
It is venial sin which has gradations, since it weakens charity. The extent of that weakening depends on the seriousness of the sin. If unrepented at death there is the purification of purgatory, but we are still God’s friend, and assured us of eternal Life.
You can have degrees of sickness but there is only one degree of death.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
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