Sinfulness of Mary

[exiled]

I’m wondering exactly what the protestants on this board think of Mary. They have made it clear that they think she was a sinner. So, my question is, how sinful? Do you think she would have been a very devout Jewish woman, or do you think she was your average Joe?
Also, I’m not asking for a doctrinal statement from any of you, so you don’t need to tell me how irrelevant it is, or in any way enter into a binding agreement by offering your opinion.
Up front, I expect most of you will agree that she was, at least, a holy woman. And if you think she was a particularly holy woman, why do you think so?

 

[SolaScriptura]

I’m wondering exactly what the protestants on this board think of Mary. They have made it clear that they think she was a sinner. So, my question is, how sinful? Do you think she would have been a very devout Jewish woman, or do you think she was your average Joe?
Also, I’m not asking for a doctrinal statement from any of you, so you don’t need to tell me how irrelevant it is, or in any way enter into a binding agreement by offering your opinion.
Up front, I expect most of you will agree that she was, at least, a holy woman. And if you think she was a particularly holy woman, why do you think so?

She seemed to be humble and holy lady. However, there is so little the New Testament says about her it is hard to go beyond that. I don’t know how anyone can measure her level of holiness.

 

[BrianH]

I’m wondering exactly what the protestants on this board think of Mary. They have made it clear that they think she was a sinner. So, my question is, how sinful? Do you think she would have been a very devout Jewish woman, or do you think she was your average Joe?

I do not know. I would imagine quite devout. But it is just a hunch and an assumption that as a young man in his formative years the Lord would have placed him in a good environment to build him up prior to all that he would have to face in the world.
BH

 

[Mickey]

She seemed to be humble and holy lady. However, there is so little the New Testament says about her it is hard to go beyond that. I don’t know how anyone can measure her level of holiness.

She was the only one there throughout Jesus’ entire lifetime. Birth, childhood, ministry, crucifixtion, resurrection, ascension.

Meditate on that for a while.

 

[rr1213]

She is the Mother of God, she found favor with the Lord and is to be called blessed by all generations. Undoubtedly she was an extremely devout and holy woman whether she sinned in some minor way or not.

 

[water]

There must be a very good reason why Virgin Mary was mentioned a little in the Bible.

Could somebody try to think of some reasons?

Thanks!

 

[newbie1234]

Mary had original sin. That is enough to call her sinner.
And she needed a savior. She could have lived a sinless life, which is doubtful because even thoughts can be sinful, and she still needed a savior because of Adams sin.

 

[Penitus]

There must be a very good reason why Virgin Mary was mentioned a little in the Bible.

Could somebody try to think of some reasons?

Thanks!

Simple, to show that God truly became one of us, to show us how he is both God and man.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Mary had original sin. That is enough to call her sinner.
And she needed a savior. She could have lived a sinless life, which is doubtful because even thoughts can be sinful, and she still needed a savior because of Adams sin.

That’s Protestant view of Mary.

In the Catholic Church’s teaching, Mary was preserved from the original sin, and its stain.

From the moment of her conception, God saved her by preserving her from sin.

In the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant bear the Word of God.

Mary said in Luke Luke 1:46-49.

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the lowly state of his maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed

.

So her role is to magnify the Lord and rejoice in God her Saviour. In Scripture Mary says, “My soul magnifies the Lord.” A soul is eternal. It is forever. I think it is important that she said “my soul.” It is an eternal statement. Mary reinforces this in the same Bible passage by saying “all generations will call me blessed.” I don’t think Mary’s role ended with the birth of Jesus. I would suggest it is unbiblical to say that Mary’s soul does not “magnify the Lord.” She is to be “lowly” and humble (which she is). We also have been called upon to do something: to call her blessed. This is for all generations, all people and especially all Christians, not just a few little old Catholic ladies.

The Ark carried the Word of God. Mary carried the Word of God made flesh when she was pregnant with him. The Ark of the Covenant first disappeared in 1 Sam 4:11 when the Philistines overtook Israel. But it was returned to the Israelites after it became a curse to those who did not believe in the One True God. (1 Sam 6:4) This tells us that the Ark has a propensity to turn up after it is captured. It disappeared again, during the Babylonian conquest around 600 B.C. never to be seen again to this day.

Catholics believe it did come back again, just as it did the first time it was lost. Originally the Ark of the Covenant contained the word of God etched on stone by God’s own hand. The Ark was not the Word itself but it was nevertheless very important. Mary carried the “word made flesh” inside her the same way the Ark carried the 10 commandments which were the Word of God manifest in the real word. (Jn 1:1) The Ark turns up in Revelation 11:19. It is presented as Mary, the mother of Jesus.

19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. 12 :1 A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pangs, in the agony of giving birth. Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne.. 13 So when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent . Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

Some Evangelicals have suggested that woman crowned with stars in this passage is Israel and that the 12 stars represent the tribes of Israel. They say the woman is not Mary. The problem with this interpretation is that the passage clearly says her children are those who “hold the testimony of Jesus” (Rev 12:17) which the children of Israel clearly have not done, but the children of Mary surely have. Catholics believe this started with John at the foot of the cross when Jesus presented Mary to him as his mother. (Jn 19:26)

Catholics believe this passage of Revelation makes clear several important points:

1. The Ark of the Covenant has been restored to the temple
2. The temple is now heaven (See also Heb 9:1-12)
3. A woman with a crown is there - the new Ark
4. She gave birth to the son who will rule the nations and is at God’s throne
5. The devil is very interested in destroying her but she is safe
6. Her children are all faithful Christians.

 

[William_Putnam]

There must be a very good reason why Virgin Mary was mentioned a little in the Bible.

Could somebody try to think of some reasons?

Thanks!

I have thought about this alot in another forum and defended it this way:

Mary apparently lived to very near the end of the apostolic era, thus in deference and awe of the role she played in being the mother of the Savior of the world, little is said beyond her last words at the Wedding Feast of Cana, “Do what ever He [Jesus] tells you to do.”

After, that, I think the last time she is menteioned is in Acts, the recordings of what went one at Pentecost.

But it did not last long after the end of the apostolic era, as we see the rapid increase in a devotion to Our Lady in the writiings of the early church fathers.

For what it is worth…

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Hail, O you, through whom Joy will shine forth!
Hail, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Hail, O Restoration of the Fallen Adam!
Hail, O Redemption of the Tears of Eve!
Hail, O Peak above the reach of human thought!
Hail, O Depth even beyond the sight of angels!
Hail, O you who have become a Kingly Throne!
Hail, O you who carry Him Who Carries All!
Hail, O Star who manifest the Sun!
Hail, O Womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Hail, O you through whom creation is renewed!
Hail, O you through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!
Hail, O Bride and Maiden ever-pure!

 

[Mannyfit75]

continue,

Let us compare the Ark of the covenant in the old testament to Mary, who Catholics believe is the new Ark.

The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex 25:10)

The Word became Flesh (John 1)

The Ark carried the Word of God (Deut 10:1) The Ark carried the Old Covenant.

David says “Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?” (2 Sam 6:9)

Elizabeth says “Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me” (Lk 1:43)

When the Ark returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam 6:14)

The baby leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary came into Elizabeth’s presence carrying Jesus in her womb. (Lk 2 38)

There I have set the ark in which is the covenant of the Lord that he made with his people Israel (2Ch 6:11)

Jesus is the new Covenant and he is in Mary’s womb, which makes Mary the ark of the New Covenant. Elizabeth’s husband Zachariah said "He has remembered his holy covenant (Lk 1:72) …The cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood (Lk 22:20)

Joshua summoned the twelve men from the Israelite, whom he had appointed, one from each tribe. Joshua said to them “Pass on before the ark of the Lord your God.” (Josh 4:4) There were 12 stones like the 12 stars in Rev…

The ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; … 12 :1 A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman …and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Rev 11:19) representing the tribes of Israel.

In Joshua Chapter 6, the Israelites circle Jerico with the Ark of the Covenant and blowing horns for seven days before their victory.

In Revelation Chapter 8-11 before the introduction the Ark of the covenant (Chapter 12) the angels blow seven trumpets to herold the victory over Satan.

The Ark of the Lord is a blessing to the house (2 Sam 6:11)

Mary goes into the hills and blesses Elizabeth’s house (Lk 2 38

The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)

Mary is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Mat 2:14)

The Ark disappears (Jer 3:16) never to return until the New Testament Revelation story.

The Ark reappears as a lady who bears a son who is seated at the right hand of God . Her children are Christians. (Rev 11:19)

It will not be like the covenant that I made…that they broke though I was their husband (Jer 31:31)

The Holy spirit shall overshadow you; therefore the son to be born to you …will be called the Son of God (Lk 1:35) (The Holy Spirit was Mary’s spouse)

The Ark is Pure and so is Mary. So she is sinless.

 

[newbie1234]

continue,

Let us compare the Ark of the covenant in the old testament to Mary, who Catholics believe is the new Ark.

The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex 25:10)

The Word became Flesh (John 1)

The Ark carried the Word of God (Deut 10:1) The Ark carried the Old Covenant.

David says “Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?” (2 Sam 6:9)

Elizabeth says “Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me” (Lk 1:43)

When the Ark returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam 6:14)

The baby leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary came into Elizabeth’s presence carrying Jesus in her womb. (Lk 2 38)

There I have set the ark in which is the covenant of the Lord that he made with his people Israel (2Ch 6:11)

Jesus is the new Covenant and he is in Mary’s womb, which makes Mary the ark of the New Covenant. Elizabeth’s husband Zachariah said "He has remembered his holy covenant (Lk 1:72) …The cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood (Lk 22:20)

Joshua summoned the twelve men from the Israelite, whom he had appointed, one from each tribe. Joshua said to them “Pass on before the ark of the Lord your God.” (Josh 4:4) There were 12 stones like the 12 stars in Rev…

The ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; … 12 :1 A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman …and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Rev 11:19) representing the tribes of Israel.

In Joshua Chapter 6, the Israelites circle Jerico with the Ark of the Covenant and blowing horns for seven days before their victory.

In Revelation Chapter 8-11 before the introduction the Ark of the covenant (Chapter 12) the angels blow seven trumpets to herold the victory over Satan.

The Ark of the Lord is a blessing to the house (2 Sam 6:11)

Mary goes into the hills and blesses Elizabeth’s house (Lk 2 38

The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)

Mary is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Mat 2:14)

The Ark disappears (Jer 3:16) never to return until the New Testament Revelation story.

The Ark reappears as a lady who bears a son who is seated at the right hand of God . Her children are Christians. (Rev 11:19)

It will not be like the covenant that I made…that they broke though I was their husband (Jer 31:31)

The Holy spirit shall overshadow you; therefore the son to be born to you …will be called the Son of God (Lk 1:35) (The Holy Spirit was Mary’s spouse)

The Ark is Pure and so is Mary. So she is sinless.

Does every covenant need an ark?
If so can you point out the arks for the Adamic covenant, Abrahamic covenant, and Noahic Covenant?
Point being that not every covenant needs an ark so assuming Mary was the ‘ark’ is a stretch.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Hello All,

It’s been a while since I have posted on here… But I thought I would add my point of view as this thread is pointed towards protestants…

Mary, the way I have been taught and have come to the conclusion of, was a woman of God. She worshipped Him and tried to follow His Word to it’s fullest. She trusted that He knew what He was doing when she found out that He had chosen her to bear His Son. He CHOSE her. I can’t imagine what an extremely humbling and exciting feeling Mary was feeling knowing that the Most High had chosen her out of every woman out there to carry out the prophesy that she and others had heard and anticipated for so many years. How could anyone not think of her as blessed. Can’t say I would be feeling anything less if God told me that I would be trusted enough to feed, clothe, and raise the Son of God Himself. Makes me wonder what was going through her head when she ‘lost’ Jesus. Not only is she worried about her Son but the fact that she lost God’s only Son would have just about given her a heart attack! Anyways, I digress… I don’t believe that she was without original sin. If she had to be without original sin to ‘house’ the Son of God because He had to come from a sinless environment then that means that her mother, grandmother, great grandmother, and so on would have to be sinless also. This doesn’t jive with the whole original sin, line of David concept. The line of David was not sinless by any means. If even one person. except Jesus - He is God so He could have protected Himself within ANY environment, of that line was sinless because he needed a clean vessel then they ALL would have to be clean vessels. It doesn’t make sense! She also would not have acknowledged that she needed a Savior because without original sin the connection of Jesus to God would not be necessary.

Mary was a beautifully humble and Godly woman who chose to follow God and face adversity then to follow her own sinful nature and say ‘no’. She is Blessed beyond measure and I can’t wait to talk to her in Heaven and find out how life really was like for her back then…

 

[DeFide]

I don’t believe that she was without original sin. If she had to be without original sin to ‘house’ the Son of God because He had to come from a sinless environment then that means that her mother, grandmother, great grandmother, and so on would have to be sinless also. This doesn’t jive with the whole original sin, line of David concept. The line of David was not sinless by any means. If even one person. except Jesus - He is God so He could have protected Himself within ANY environment, of that line was sinless because he needed a clean vessel then they ALL would have to be clean vessels. It doesn’t make sense! She also would not have acknowledged that she needed a Savior because without original sin the connection of Jesus to God would not be necessary.

…

Hold on. Catholics would agree that it wasn’t necessary for Mary to conceived free from the stain of original sin… only that it was fitting (and that it did occur). She was the Ark of the New Covenant after all. From another insightful post:

As if this wasn’t enough, compare 2 Samuel 6 with Luke 1. The Ark of the Covenant and Mary both go to the hill country of Judea (2 Sam 6:1-11, Lk 1:39). Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the Ark (2 Sam 6:14). John the Baptist of priestly lineage leapt in his mother’s womb at the approach of Mary (Lk 1:41). David asked “Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?” (2 Sam 6:9). Elizabeth asked almost the same thing, "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Lk 1:43). David was shouting in the presence of the Ark (2 Sam 6:15). Elizabeth “cried out” in the presence of the Mary (Lk 1:42). The Ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam 6:11). Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Lk 1:56).

These coincedences are far too great to be mere coincedence. Now it all boils down to this…LOOK AT PSALM 132:8…

"Arise, O Lord, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength." ~Psalm 132:8

The Immacutate Conception of Mary and the Assumption of Mary go hand in hand. (Yes this post is a tad off topic)

 

[Singinbeauty]

Hold on. Catholics would agree that it wasn’t necessary for Mary to conceived free from the stain of original sin… only that it was fitting (and that it did occur). She was the Ark of the New Covenant after all. From another insightful post:

As if this wasn’t enough, compare 2 Samuel 6 with Luke 1. The Ark of the Covenant and Mary both go to the hill country of Judea (2 Sam 6:1-11, Lk 1:39). Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the Ark (2 Sam 6:14). John the Baptist of priestly lineage leapt in his mother’s womb at the approach of Mary (Lk 1:41). David asked “Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?” (2 Sam 6:9). Elizabeth asked almost the same thing, "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Lk 1:43). David was shouting in the presence of the Ark (2 Sam 6:15). Elizabeth “cried out” in the presence of the Mary (Lk 1:42). The Ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam 6:11). Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Lk 1:56).

These coincedences are far too great to be mere coincedence. Now it all boils down to this…LOOK AT PSALM 132:8…

"Arise, O Lord, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength." ~Psalm 132:8

The Immacutate Conception and the Assumption of Mary go hand in hand.

Hmmmm, seems to be reaching a little. And does the verse actually say ‘Who am I that the ‘ARK’ of my Lord…’ I thought it says Mother. Just because there are similarities doesn’t mean they are the same. How are Obed-edom and Elizabeth connected? So she stayed in Elizabeth’s house for three months. And… *shrug… I am not seeing a convincing argument… No offense… But it is something to think on… Thanx for the reply…

 

[DeFide]

Hmmmm, seems to be reaching a little. And does the verse actually say ‘Who am I that the ‘ARK’ of my Lord…’ I thought it says Mother. Just because there are similarities doesn’t mean they are the same. How are Obed-edom and Elizabeth connected? So she stayed in Elizabeth’s house for three months. And… *shrug… I am not seeing a convincing argument… No offense… But it is something to think on… Thanx for the reply…

As you think about this short list (of a longer list) of typology, consider this regarding Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant:

In the book of Revelation we read, “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple” (Rev. 11:19). “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; . . . she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev. 12:1,5). The arbitrary break here between chapters, done long after the Bible was written, makes it easy to overlook how John mentions the mother of the Messiah in conjunction with the Ark of the Covenant.

source: catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0105sbs.asp

Another coincidence?

 

[Singinbeauty]

As you think about this short list (of a longer list) of typology, consider this regarding Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant:

In the book of Revelation we read, “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple” (Rev. 11:19). “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; . . . she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev. 12:1,5). The arbitrary break here between chapters, done long after the Bible was written, makes it easy to overlook how John mentions the mother of the Messiah in conjunction with the Ark of the Covenant.

source: catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0105sbs.asp

Another coincidence?

Could the Ark spoken of in Rev. 11:19 be the actual Ark? No one has been able to find it and no one knows what happened to it. It could be that God has it and it is not here on earth… and the whole Woman with the crown of 12 stars, in my findings, is not Mary but Isreal so there is no coincidence imho.

 

[water]

I have thought about this alot in another forum and defended it this way:

Mary apparently lived to very near the end of the apostolic era, thus in deference and awe of the role she played in being the mother of the Savior of the world, little is said beyond her last words at the Wedding Feast of Cana, “Do what ever He [Jesus] tells you to do.”

After, that, I think the last time she is menteioned is in Acts, the recordings of what went one at Pentecost.

But it did not last long after the end of the apostolic era, as we see the rapid increase in a devotion to Our Lady in the writiings of the early church fathers.

For what it is worth…

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Hail, O you, through whom Joy will shine forth!
Hail, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Hail, O Restoration of the Fallen Adam!
Hail, O Redemption of the Tears of Eve!
Hail, O Peak above the reach of human thought!
Hail, O Depth even beyond the sight of angels!
Hail, O you who have become a Kingly Throne!
Hail, O you who carry Him Who Carries All!
Hail, O Star who manifest the Sun!
Hail, O Womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Hail, O you through whom creation is renewed!
Hail, O you through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!
Hail, O Bride and Maiden ever-pure!

Amen!
To me, the Virgin Mary was mentioned little in the Bible can help me think of and realize her being so humble. Imagine when someone is a parent of a smart child, isn’t he/she proud of the child. Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, yet she was been very quite. She was quite; however, her action and loyal and being loving to Jesus was more than anyone other human being.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Does every covenant need an ark?
If so can you point out the arks for the Adamic covenant, Abrahamic covenant, and Noahic Covenant?
Point being that not every covenant needs an ark so assuming Mary was the ‘ark’ is a stretch.

There were only two covenant. The one in the OT and Mary was a type of Ark, not literally the Ark.

She is a type of Ark because for 9 month she became the living tabernacle of God, because Jesus was in her womb.

The covenant established by Abraham and God was that Abraham will be father a great Nation Israel. There was no ark there ((fellow Catholics if I am incorrect, make the adjustments))

The Ark was made during the time of Moses when God commanded him to build an Ark.

newbie, I find your remarks almost charitable and mocking of our belief. You sound like one of the Pharisees. You need to take a deep breath, and at least try to understand the Catholic position.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Could the Ark spoken of in Rev. 11:19 be the actual Ark? No one has been able to find it and no one knows what happened to it. It could be that God has it and it is not here on earth… and the whole Woman with the crown of 12 stars, in my findings, is not Mary but Isreal so there is no coincidence imho.

The woman can be describe as Israel, the New Church, and Mary.

If you look on the later verse. This woman gave birth to a male child who will rule all nations. This child was taken up to God and to sit on his throne.

This child ruler is Jesus. The child taken up to God, is description of Jesus ascension into heaven. His throne is Right Hand of the Father.

Now let’s pause? If this child is Jesus? Then who is the woman? Who is the woman describe in the Bible as the mother of the Messiah? Mary.

In a literal sense, the woman is Mary.