Sinfulness of Mary

[YADA]

Singingbeauty,

You determine that to be housed free from sin coud only be accomplished through Mary, if and only if all of her ancesters were also free from sin is just that your determination. It is not founded upon anything except how you feel.

Anyways, I digress… I don’t believe that she was without original sin. If she had to be without original sin to ‘house’ the Son of God because He had to come from a sinless environment then that means that her mother, grandmother, great grandmother, and so on would have to be sinless also. This doesn’t jive with the whole original sin, line of David concept. The line of David was not sinless by any means. If even one person. except Jesus - He is God so He could have protected Himself within ANY environment, of that line was sinless because he needed a clean vessel then they ALL would have to be clean vessels. It doesn’t make sense! She also would not have acknowledged that she needed a Savior because without original sin the connection of Jesus to God would not be necessary.

Your concept of God seems very small. God can protect Himself but He can’t [or would not] keep Mary [the woman who He chooses to be His earthly mother] free from original sin! Mary needed a savior just like all of humanity, Jesus ‘saved’ Mary, just like HE saves us. He just performed that saving act at the moment of her conception. A saving act that is not hard to believe.

Tell me, if you could do anything for your mother, would you. If your mother needed kidney to live [and you were a perfect match and capable to do it] would you give it to her? Would you give it to her while she was still fairly healthy [and strong enough to undergo surgery] or would you delay until she was really sick [and thereby less likely to handle the rigors of surgery]?

Mary could have been stoned to death for being found pregnant and unmarried! SHe said yes to God. God knows us and calls us “by name” in the womb. He literally knits our very bones and sinews, God knows us intimately in our mothers womb.

Jesus was present at the creation of the world and was present when Adam and Eve were created. He selected mary to be hismother. Jesus knew Mary, loved Mary and saved Mary.

 

[roblrich]

Mary had original sin. That is enough to call her sinner.
And she needed a savior. She could have lived a sinless life, which is doubtful because even thoughts can be sinful, and she still needed a savior because of Adams sin.

Heresay! Anyone with original sin wouldn’t be worthy of being a vessal of carrying in their womb and being the Mother of God.

I also wouldn’t suggest talking about someone’s mother in such terms, especially Christ’s.

Oh yea, protstants are "once saved, always saved. They can do or say what they please and not worry about the consequences…

I hope you protestants discussing this subject doesn’t cause your church to splinter into two or three more churches.

 

[rr1213]

Heresay! Anyone with original sin wouldn’t be worthy of being a vessal of carrying in their womb and being the Mother of God.

Nonsense. Jesus Christ himself, the incarnate Son of God, of one being with the father, begotten not made–Jesus Christ himself became sin for us. If God can, and did become sin, it is straining credibility to insist that it would not be proper for May to have had original sin.

“For He has made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” (2 Cor 5:21)

 

[Mannyfit75]

Nonsense. Jesus Christ himself, the incarnate Son of God, of one being with the father, begotten not made–Jesus Christ himself became sin for us. If God can, and did become sin, it is straining credibility to insist that it would not be proper for May to have had original sin.

“For He has made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” (2 Cor 5:21)

Actually that verse means, Sin for us"… That is, to be a sin offering, a victim for sin."

Mary was preserve from original sin and its stains. The concept of her sinlessness, is ancient as Christianity itself. For as the Ark was pure to carry the Word of God in the OT, Mary is the type of New Ark, of the New Covenant, the God Bearer, of the Incarnate Word of God, Jesu Christ. This was so during the first 9 months, and remain so throughout her life.

 

[roblrich]

Nonsense. Jesus Christ himself, the incarnate Son of God, of one being with the father, begotten not made–Jesus Christ himself became sin for us. If God can, and did become sin, it is straining credibility to insist that it would not be proper for May to have had original sin.

Forgive them Heavenly Father for they know not what they do (or say). You see Heavenly Father, and as you already know, Martin Luther led them astray, tore out entire books of your scriptures, doctored others and now these lost people rely on incomplete scriptures, which is pretty bad when they rely toally on ‘sola scriptura’.

Now they wonder in the wilderness and speak badly (out of ignorance) of the Queen of Heaven, our Heavenly Mother.

Time for me to pray the Rosary and I’ll say a Hail Mary for these stray, hungry souls which are never fed the Holy Eucharist.

 

[rr1213]

Forgive them Heavenly Father for they know not what they do (or say). You see Heavenly Father, and as you already know, Martin Luther led them astray, tore out entire books of your scriptures, doctored others and now these lost people rely on incomplete scriptures, which is pretty bad when they rely toally on ‘sola scriptura’.

Now they wonder in the wilderness and speak badly (out of ignorance) of the Queen of Heaven, our Heavenly Mother.

Time for me to pray the Rosary and I’ll say a Hail Mary for these stray, hungry souls which are never fed the Holy Eucharist.

Gee thanks

 

[Church_Militant]

Nonsense. Jesus Christ himself, the incarnate Son of God, of one being with the father, begotten not made–Jesus Christ himself became sin for us. If God can, and did become sin, it is straining credibility to insist that it would not be proper for May to have had original sin.

“For He has made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” (2 Cor 5:21)

That’s some pretty strange logic there RR…

If you can accept that then why can’t you accept the other possibility?

 

[rr1213]

That’s some pretty strange logic there RR…

If you can accept that then why can’t you accept the other possibility?

Which would be…?

 

[Church_Militant]

Which would be…?

Why the Catholic assertion that all things being possible with God means that she could indeed have lived a sinless life.

 

[rr1213]

Why the Catholic assertion that all things being possible with God means that she could indeed have lived a sinless life.

All things are possible with God. The question is not, could God? but, rather did God? But anyway, I’ve engaged in a million and one discussions on these forums about whether Mary was without sin or not, so I’ll probably bow out on this one. (Of course, I brought it on myself by responding to the posts, but…)

 

[Singinbeauty]

The woman can be describe as Israel, the New Church, and Mary.

If you look on the later verse. This woman gave birth to a male child who will rule all nations. This child was taken up to God and to sit on his throne.

This child ruler is Jesus. The child taken up to God, is description of Jesus ascension into heaven. His throne is Right Hand of the Father.

Now let’s pause? If this child is Jesus? Then who is the woman? Who is the woman describe in the Bible as the mother of the Messiah? Mary.

In a literal sense, the woman is Mary.

Ever thought that the woman still represents the nation of Isreal because it gave birth to Jesus? The woman wears the twelve stars on her crown - God’s chosen people are the jewish nation (the Twelve Tribes of Isreal). Why would Mary have a crown with twelve stars? And when did Satan ever come specifically after her? He went after Jesus but not after Mary except for in the usual way that he comes after us due to Human Nature. He also went after Isreal time and time again, even driving them into the wilderness. To me it just makes more sense for the woman to represent Isreal then to take it literally as Mary herself.

 

[roblrich]

All things are possible with God. The question is not, could God? but, rather did God? But anyway, I’ve engaged in a million and one discussions on these forums about whether Mary was without sin or not, so I’ll probably bow out on this one. (Of course, I brought it on myself by responding to the posts, but…)

Wow, a somewhat softening of the heart from one ‘Hail Mary’.

Come on Catholic’s (and us in RCIA converting), if we all say another ‘Hail Mary’ for rr, he may open his heart enough to come home…
(Edited by Moderator :tsktsk

 

[Singinbeauty]

Singingbeauty,

You determine that to be housed free from sin coud only be accomplished through Mary, if and only if all of her ancesters were also free from sin is just that your determination. It is not founded upon anything except how you feel.

It has nothing to do with how I FEEL. It’s only logic. I have heard many catholics state that in order for Mary to be worthy of having Jesus dwell within her for those 9 months she would have to be without original sin. And yes, they say HAVE TO. No if - ands - or buts. So if she HAD to be sinless to carry a sinless child then logic would follow that every vessel that carried her direct line would also have to be sinless…

Your concept of God seems very small. God can protect Himself but He can’t [or would not] keep Mary [the woman who He chooses to be His earthly mother] free from original sin! Mary needed a savior just like all of humanity, Jesus ‘saved’ Mary, just like HE saves us. He just performed that saving act at the moment of her conception. A saving act that is not hard to believe.

I am not sure what you mean here. If she did not have original sin then there would not be a need for the sacrifice Jesus made. She would not require a Savior because the reason we all need a one is because we are staind with original sin ergo (I love that word!) if she had no original sin she did not need a Savior. My God is BIG and He can protect Himself if what He required was a clean vessel. But I think that because He chose to enter this world through a woman He would have done it through an ordinary woman just like the rest of us. To become that sacrifice and be a human to it’s fullest extent He came through a woman who was no different from the rest of us.

Tell me, if you could do anything for your mother, would you. If your mother needed kidney to live [and you were a perfect match and capable to do it] would you give it to her? Would you give it to her while she was still fairly healthy [and strong enough to undergo surgery] or would you delay until she was really sick [and thereby less likely to handle the rigors of surgery]?

I do not find evidence that Jesus nor God valued Mary any higher than any other person besides choosing her to bear the Christ child. Yes, you want to save your Mother and you do anything for her but I am not sure that God would have given her different treatment than the rest of us when it came to original sin because like I said above, He wanted to come to this world through and ordinary woman through extrordinary circumstances.

Mary could have been stoned to death for being found pregnant and unmarried! SHe said yes to God. God knows us and calls us “by name” in the womb. He literally knits our very bones and sinews, God knows us intimately in our mothers womb.

Since Mary’s faith was real she would have known that nothing would happen to her or the child she was growing in her belly because God would not allow that. Jesus was coming and the prophecy would be fullfilled. She knew this. She may have been concerned but I believe that she also knew that she was under the protection of God.

Jesus was present at the creation of the world and was present when Adam and Eve were created. He selected mary to be hismother. Jesus knew Mary, loved Mary and saved Mary.

Yes, He did save Mary. When He died on that cross and became the ultimate sacrifice He saved her just like He saved the rest of us.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Wow, a somewhat softening of the heart from one ‘Hail Mary’.

Come on Catholic’s (and us in RCIA converting), if we all say another ‘Hail Mary’ for rr, he may open his heart enough to come home…

(Edited by Moderator :tsktsk

Wow, just wow… (Edited by Moderator :tsktsk

 

[Tom]

Isn’t the intended and natural state of the human to be in harmony with God? Do you think God made us to fight with? Adam and Eve were created free of original sin. This is the way we should all have been born. Our human parents sinned against God; it wasn’t the way they were created. So the immaculate conception of Mary is the intended way we all should have been born, and if it weren’t for the original sin of Adam and Eve, we would have been. It is how humans were intended to be. Mary did indeed require a savior; she simply was “saved” from the moment of her conception. Jesus did this for His mother because He could. If I had the power I would have done the same for my mother, wouldn’t you? But we don’t have that power, He does. Why did He do this? Because He could.
The immaculate conception of Mary is the natural way humans were intended to be, in complete harmony with their God.

 

[roblrich]

It has nothing to do with how I FEEL. It’s only logic.

Logic? No need to read any further. We are speaking of religion here.

(Edited by Moderator :tsktsk

 

[Mickey]

Hmmmm, seems to be reaching a little.

Hmmmmm, when the Samuel/Luke analogy was first brought to my attention, it was like, oh man, how obvious that Our Lady is the Ark of the New Covenant! It was as if a very bright light illuminated the truth for me.

Isn’t it odd that someone else can see this and say, “Ho hum”.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Ever thought that the woman still represents the nation of Isreal because it gave birth to Jesus? The woman wears the twelve stars on her crown - God’s chosen people are the jewish nation (the Twelve Tribes of Isreal). Why would Mary have a crown with twelve stars? And when did Satan ever come specifically after her? He went after Jesus but not after Mary except for in the usual way that he comes after us due to Human Nature. He also went after Isreal time and time again, even driving them into the wilderness. To me it just makes more sense for the woman to represent Isreal then to take it literally as Mary herself.

Because Jesus is the King of the New Kingdom. Under the Davidic Kingdom of the OT, King had mothers as their Queen. Jesus continue that Hebrew tradition. John knows this well in the Jewish since.

Mary is Queen of Heaven, with twelve stars on her head. The Twelve Stars are the Twelve Apostles, who preach the Good News.

Satan did come after her in the form of Herod, who seek to destroy the child Jesus. Mary and Joseph fled to the desert in the land of Egypt.

 

[BrianH]

Forgive them Heavenly Father for they know not what they do (or say). You see Heavenly Father, and as you already know, Martin Luther led them astray, tore out entire books of your scriptures, doctored others and now these lost people rely on incomplete scriptures, which is pretty bad when they rely toally on ‘sola scriptura’.

Now they wonder in the wilderness and speak badly (out of ignorance) of the Queen of Heaven, our Heavenly Mother.

Time for me to pray the Rosary and I’ll say a Hail Mary for these stray, hungry souls which are never fed the Holy Eucharist.

What is the Catholic stance of praying to God using the internet?

 

[roblrich]

What is the Catholic stance of praying to God using the internet?

Hmm, I’m new so I don’t have an opinion yet.

I do know at yesterday’s Mass during homily, my priest said to us if we prayed for purification and humility, God will answer our prayer, and when he does, don’t complain.

I did pray for more humility during my conversion after yesterday’s Mass and God has started to answer my prayer via the internet. (Edited by Moderator)

Thanks God for answering my prayer. I am humiliated. I am humbled.

I wonder what else He has in store for me?

I’m gonna go lock myself in the bathroom.