Sinfulness of praying to a saint before praying to God

  • Thread starter Thread starter BRZ
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well when I mentioned to him that when we pray, we are asking them to pray for us, he then just said that is fine but it isn’t necessary, we can just go to Jesus. He also said that putting anyone’s name in a prayer is against God, as in the Hail Mary. Of course I said that was ridiculous and that everything in the Hail Mary is from the bible, which he then said that “Yeah, Catholics took that from the bible and then distorted it by making it into a prayer”

I am trying to help him see that praying to the saints is just asking for their intercession or help on our behalf but he just can’t see it. He just says, we can go through Jesus and only Jesus.
 
I think we have to be careful to define our terms when we talk about praying. When we communicate with Mary or the Saints, we are praying to them…however, “Praying” in this sense means communicating. If they were still here on earth as we are, we’d be “talking” to them.

Praying to our Lord is a different matter; it is a form of worship.

I’ve always preferred the term “praying through the Saints”, as it creates less confusion for those who aren’t familiar or don’t understand what we’re saying. 🙂
 
BRZ said:
Well when I mentioned to him that when we pray, we are asking them to pray for us, he then just said that is fine but it isn’t necessary, we can just go to Jesus. He also said that putting anyone’s name in a prayer is against God, as in the Hail Mary. Of course I said that was ridiculous and that everything in the Hail Mary is from the bible, which he then said that “Yeah, Catholics took that from the bible and then distorted it by making it into a prayer”

I am trying to help him see that praying to the saints is just asking for their intercession or help on our behalf but he just can’t see it. He just says, we can go through Jesus and only Jesus.
Click to expand...
If your protestant friend NEVER asks and has NEVER asked another Christian to pray for him, then he is not practicing a mainstream protestant religion. He would be a) a liar or b) belong to some fringe group whose religion is probably rife with error.

BTW and this is off subject but a good way to defend our use of holy pictures and images of the saints is to ask the person you are talking with to show you his wallet. If he carries pictures of loved ones, point to one and ask him, “Why do you worship your Aunt Sara.” 😃
 
I must admit that I, too, believe that Mary and the “saints” are all dead, in the grave, awaiting the resurrection that God promised.
“All have sinned…” (Rom 3:23)—and that presumably includes “all”. (Except Jesus–I suppose one must make allowances for Jesus in matters of sin).
But, even allowing for the assumption of Mary, etc, and the presence of the saints in Heaven, what would be the point of praying to an intermediary when God is directly available?
If I had a direct line to the Prime Minister, would I bother with a lesser minister or the secretary to the Prime Minister? Of course not: I’d go straight to the top, all the time.

Prayers should only be offered to God. Look at the Lord’s Prayer: there’s nothing there about praying to anybody other than God the father.
To do otherwise reduces Heaven to a side-show of greater or lesser saints (some of dubious historicity). But, I suppose the get-out clause of “Whatever you bind on earth…” can be used just about anywhere.

I realise that this is contentious around here. It’s just my view.

No harm.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
According to whom?
Click to expand...
The authority in this matter.
Certainly not the Bible.
Click to expand...
Who interprets the bible?
In fact, the Bible only mentions one intercessor/mediator, Jesus Christ, and the Assumption of Mary didn’t even become dogma until 1950! Now, back to the topic at hand, I don’t believe God would be pleased by being tossed onto the back burner to make way for veneration of Mary and the Saints.
Click to expand...
Praying to Mary does not place God on the back burner. In fact, it is His will. She has the position she does because He ordains it.
 
BRZ said:
“Yeah, Catholics took that from the bible and then distorted it by making it into a prayer”
Click to expand...
Like the psalms?

Or extemporaneous prayer when one begins, “Lord, in the Bible you said…”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
EmperorNapoleon said:
You say you don’t pray to Mary or the Saints? Do you pray the rosary or do you ask the rosary?
Click to expand...
In the context of your example, “To pray” and “to ask” are the same thing. The original meaning of the word “pray” means to “importune, entreat, supplicate, beg, beseech, implore.”

Additionally, the word “prithee” is used in British parliament today meaning “pray thee.” No way are they worshiping other members of parliament.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
CarlaOLS said:
If your protestant friend NEVER asks and has NEVER asked another Christian to pray for him, then he is not practicing a mainstream protestant religion. He would be a) a liar or b) belong to some fringe group whose religion is probably rife with error.

BTW and this is off subject but a good way to defend our use of holy pictures and images of the saints is to ask the person you are talking with to show you his wallet. If he carries pictures of loved ones, point to one and ask him, “Why do you worship your Aunt Sara.” 😃
Click to expand...
Yes, if you don’t want any help from the saints in heaven, why would you ask another human being standing in your prayer group to pray for you? To me, it’s sort of silly. It’s as if in a family of mom, dad, and five children, every conversation must be directed only to dad and no one else.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
According to whom? Certainly not the Bible. In fact, the Bible only mentions one intercessor/mediator, Jesus Christ, and the Assumption of Mary didn’t even become dogma until 1950! Now, back to the topic at hand, I don’t believe God would be pleased by being tossed onto the back burner to make way for veneration of Mary and the Saints.
Click to expand...
The dogma of the assumption of mary goes back to the first century.

Being you dont beleive in God why would anyone be interested in your views on what he would like and not like?
 
hansard said:
I must admit that I, too, believe that Mary and the “saints” are all dead, in the grave, awaiting the resurrection that God promised.
“All have sinned…” (Rom 3:23)—and that presumably includes “all”. (Except Jesus–I suppose one must make allowances for Jesus in matters of sin).
But, even allowing for the assumption of Mary, etc, and the presence of the saints in Heaven, what would be the point of praying to an intermediary when God is directly available?
If I had a direct line to the Prime Minister, would I bother with a lesser minister or the secretary to the Prime Minister? Of course not: I’d go straight to the top, all the time.

Prayers should only be offered to God. Look at the Lord’s Prayer: there’s nothing there about praying to anybody other than God the father.
To do otherwise reduces Heaven to a side-show of greater or lesser saints (some of dubious historicity). But, I suppose the get-out clause of “Whatever you bind on earth…” can be used just about anywhere.

I realise that this is contentious around here. It’s just my view.

No harm.
Click to expand...
No harm as long as you realize that your view is contrary to what the Church teaches. We are not required to ask for the intercession of Mary and the Saints but it is certainly OK to do so -in fact i beleive one could say we are encouraged to do so, especially with the Rosary.
 
What does the repeated supplication to Mary achieve that the Lord’s Prayer does not?
I don’t take this lightly: when the disciples asked, “How do we pray?” Jesus had a definite answer. It’s the only prayer you need to know.
Basically, the Lord’s Prayer:
  1. Recognises God as “Father”–this establishes a personal relationship with God;
  2. Glorifies God’s name;
  3. Acknowledges that God’s kingdom will come (not that it’s here already);
  4. Recognises that God’s will will be done on earth, as it is done in Heaven;
  5. Begs God for the daily requirements of life (metaphorically, bread);
  6. Begs for forgiveness of our sins (isn’t that an amazing concept?) ;
  7. Places the burden of forgiveness on us;
  8. Begs God to lead us away from temptation and evil (and, therefore, sin)
  9. Recognises God’s kingdom, power and glory for all eternity.
Now, what more could you want from a prayer?
 
hansard said:
What does the repeated supplication to Mary achieve that the Lord’s Prayer does not?
I don’t take this lightly: when the disciples asked, “How do we pray?” Jesus had a definite answer. It’s the only prayer you need to know.
Basically, the Lord’s Prayer:
  1. Recognises God as “Father”–this establishes a personal relationship with God;
  2. Glorifies God’s name;
  3. Acknowledges that God’s kingdom will come (not that it’s here already);
  4. Recognises that God’s will will be done on earth, as it is done in Heaven;
  5. Begs God for the daily requirements of life (metaphorically, bread);
  6. Begs for forgiveness of our sins (isn’t that an amazing concept?) ;
  7. Places the burden of forgiveness on us;
  8. Begs God to lead us away from temptation and evil (and, therefore, sin)
  9. Recognises God’s kingdom, power and glory for all eternity.
Now, what more could you want from a prayer?
Click to expand...
The Lord’s prayer is an essential prayer. And yet it is not the only way that persons of any Christian denomination pray. The Lord’s prayer is directed to the Father. Many Christians also pray to the Son, to Christ, as well as to the Holy Spirit. Nothing wrong with that. I’m not aware that Jesus ever commanded his disciples never to pray for one another, or never to pray extemporaneously.
 
hansard said:
What does the repeated supplication to Mary achieve that the Lord’s Prayer does not?
I don’t take this lightly: when the disciples asked, “How do we pray?” Jesus had a definite answer. It’s the only prayer you need to know.
Basically, the Lord’s Prayer:
  1. Recognises God as “Father”–this establishes a personal relationship with God;
  2. Glorifies God’s name;
  3. Acknowledges that God’s kingdom will come (not that it’s here already);
  4. Recognises that God’s will will be done on earth, as it is done in Heaven;
  5. Begs God for the daily requirements of life (metaphorically, bread);
  6. Begs for forgiveness of our sins (isn’t that an amazing concept?) ;
  7. Places the burden of forgiveness on us;
  8. Begs God to lead us away from temptation and evil (and, therefore, sin)
  9. Recognises God’s kingdom, power and glory for all eternity.
Now, what more could you want from a prayer?
Click to expand...
It is such an essential prayer that it is said 5 times during the Rosary. The Rosary has a two fold purpose-one is to pary for Mary’s intercession the other is to meditate on that days Mysteries. For instance have you given any thought to Christs Passion and death today?. I just spent 20 minutes doing so while I prayed the rosary.
 
Yes, I have said all of the things mentioned here to him but it isn’t getting through to him. I told him that when we pray we are asking for the saints or Mary to intercede on our behalf or to pray for us but he just sees no need in it. I think the big problem he has is with Mary, because when we say the Hail Mary, we are using Mary’s name in the prayer which he has a big problem with and also when I say to him that Mary intercedes for us with Jesus, he says we need no one to intercede for us. I tried to explain how Mary is the Queen of heaven (probably should have used Queen Mother here) but he kept saying that Jesus is the Queen and the Father is the King, etc.
 
Is there a scriptural basis for praying to saints, Mary, or anyone other than God, or anything like a “rosary”?
I mean, I grew up with the rosary, but it was just rote prayer to me. Learn it, repeat it, repeat it, repeat it… often for no reason (especially given my heresy in my post above).

Thanks
Chris
 
Of course there is. Use the Search function on the main site and you will find all the information you need. You just have to do some research.
 
hansard said:
Is there a scriptural basis for praying to saints, Mary, or anyone other than God, or anything like a “rosary”?
I mean, I grew up with the rosary, but it was just rote prayer to me. Learn it, repeat it, repeat it, repeat it… often for no reason (especially given my heresy in my post above).

Thanks
Chris
Click to expand...
There was nothing wrong with that post. In fact for those of us who pray the “Hours” we have been reading a discourse on the “Our Father” for the last week or so. There is no requirement that we ask Mary or the Saints for intercession. I personally, however, would feel a huge gap in my spirituality if I didnt pray the rosary daily.
 
hansard said:
I must admit that I, too, believe that Mary and the “saints” are all dead, in the grave, awaiting the resurrection that God promised.
“All have sinned…” (Rom 3:23)—and that presumably includes “all”. (Except Jesus–I suppose one must make allowances for Jesus in matters of sin).
But, even allowing for the assumption of Mary, etc, and the presence of the saints in Heaven, what would be the point of praying to an intermediary when God is directly available?
If I had a direct line to the Prime Minister, would I bother with a lesser minister or the secretary to the Prime Minister? Of course not: I’d go straight to the top, all the time.

Prayers should only be offered to God. Look at the Lord’s Prayer: there’s nothing there about praying to anybody other than God the father.
To do otherwise reduces Heaven to a side-show of greater or lesser saints (some of dubious historicity). But, I suppose the get-out clause of “Whatever you bind on earth…” can be used just about anywhere.

I realise that this is contentious around here. It’s just my view.
Click to expand...
I don’t know about you but I don’t have the best access to the Pope, or the President etc… I have to go thorugh others. Now even if I had access (as of course we do with God) would my word or request carry alot of weight with the president …

Hmm, I think not.
BUT…
Wait a minute I know his mom, and I know a bunch of his buddies - senators and friends that have helped accomplish his wishes for the country.

Wouldn’t it be wise of me to enlist their help in pleading my case with the president?

Now, doesn’t that make sense? 😃
 
hansard said:
What does the repeated supplication to Mary achieve that the Lord’s Prayer does not?
I don’t take this lightly: when the disciples asked, “How do we pray?” Jesus had a definite answer. It’s the only prayer you need to know.
…Now, what more could you want from a prayer?
Click to expand...
So Hansford - was Jesus telling his disciples not to pray the psalms only to pray the Lord’s prayer?
I would say not since He prayed them Himself even up to the last hour on the cross when He prayed psalm 22.

The ten Hail Mary’s following the Our Father in each decade of the rosary free the mind for meditation on the mystery of theat decade. It is impossible to understand- it must be experienced but those of us who pray the rosary delve deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Christ life, death and resurrection. It’s a beautiful thing. 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top