Sinfulness of praying to a saint before praying to God

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What I hear is a lot of people saying we should ask for saints prayers because we don’t NEED to. Which I agree, it is not necessary to ask others to pray for you. But it would be wise to. We cannot sit down and pray for ourselves 24/7, we just have things to do we have to sleep etc… Now wouldn’t it be nice to have someone praying for you while you are at work or while you are sleeping? This is where the saints come in. We Catholics can (and do) pray directly to God all the time. But we also ask others, both in heaven and on earth to pray for us. I really don’t see a problem with that.
 
No, CarlaOLS, it doesn’t make sense.
You posted:
"Now even if I had access (as of course we do with God) would my word or request carry alot of weight with the president.
Hmm, I think not."

Why not? Why would your request not carry weight if you had direct access? Why would it be better to go through somebody else?

And ababbidg:
Yes, we are all busy. Our prayers do not just last for the moment; they are (in a sense) eternal. God does not exist in time or place, so prayers offered to him are timeless. The whole 24/7 argument assumes that prayers are cancelled as soon as they are uttered. I don’t believe this.
 
hansard said:
What does the repeated supplication to Mary achieve that the Lord’s Prayer does not?
I don’t take this lightly: when the disciples asked, “How do we pray?” Jesus had a definite answer. It’s the only prayer you need to know.
Basically, the Lord’s Prayer:
  1. Recognises God as “Father”–this establishes a personal relationship with God;
  2. Glorifies God’s name;
  3. Acknowledges that God’s kingdom will come (not that it’s here already);
  4. Recognises that God’s will will be done on earth, as it is done in Heaven;
  5. Begs God for the daily requirements of life (metaphorically, bread);
  6. Begs for forgiveness of our sins (isn’t that an amazing concept?) ;
  7. Places the burden of forgiveness on us;
  8. Begs God to lead us away from temptation and evil (and, therefore, sin)
  9. Recognises God’s kingdom, power and glory for all eternity.
Now, what more could you want from a prayer?
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It has been said all prayers are found within the Lord’s prayer. Now my question to you is where does Jesus teach through His Church we must be limited to that one and only prayer?

I would also ask you, and others, if God has deemed all graces pass through our Blessed Mother as they come to us why would it be wrong for our prayers to be directed to God through her?

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512
 
fix,
I’ll take your quote from the catechism as read.
If you look beyond the touchy-feely platitudes in 969, you’ll see that there is not much there at all. A lot of guesswork and inventing things that seem to confirm the theory on offer.

Looking on.
 
BRZ said:
I know this is probably ridiculous. I had a very big argument with a protestant today and while I can’t for the life of me see anything wrong with it, he said something to me. He said that if I pray to a saint or Mary first, before praying to God then I am making them more important then God. I know this ties into the whole praying to Saints issue but I told him what does it matter whether or not we say a Hail Mary before an Our Father. He said because we are putting Mary at the same place as God. Of course, I told him that was ridiculous and in no way did I think Mary was God but no matter how I said it, he just couldn’t agree.

According to him, saying anyone’s name in a prayer is like making them God or even saying a prayer to a Saint before praying to God is sinful. I just can’t see any problem with it, I said they aren’t conflicting in anyway. Does it really matter if I pray to a Saint first and then to God? I just can’t see it.
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I personally am a Catholic and never pray to any Saint apart from Mary, Christ and God the Father. My mum prays to the saints. It is permissible in our religion to pray to the saints however, I suppose it could take over our devotion to praying to Christ, or God the Father so we should do so in moderation.
 
hansard said:
fix,
I’ll take your quote from the catechism as read.
If you look beyond the touchy-feely platitudes in 969, you’ll see that there is not much there at all. A lot of guesswork and inventing things that seem to confirm the theory on offer.

Looking on.
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Guess work? She is mediatrix of all graces.
 
hansard said:
Yes, we are all busy. Our prayers do not just last for the moment; they are (in a sense) eternal. God does not exist in time or place, so prayers offered to him are timeless. The whole 24/7 argument assumes that prayers are cancelled as soon as they are uttered. I don’t believe this.
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I never said prayers were “cancelled” as soon as you say them. The point still stands that you can only say so many prayers in a day, regardless of wether or not they are cancelled. Its not how long a prayer lasts that I was talking about, it is the number of prayers that I was getting at. If someone else says a prayer for you, is that just too many prayers or something?
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
It didn’t become dogma until 1950.
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Why does it matter when it became dogma? Dogma is dogma, whether it’s been around for 59 years or 2009 years. Rome has spoken… The dogma isn’t somehow less valid because it is recent. Would the dogma of the resurrection be less valid two days after it happened than today? No. It was just as true then as it is now. And just because the assumption only became dogma recently it was still true even before it became dogma. What’s the deal here?
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
Of course it is! The one glaring difference being that Mary and the Saints are dead. You say you don’t pray to Mary or the Saints? Do you pray the rosary or do you ask the rosary?
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Dead? Dead you say? They have eternal life. You better go back and read the Bible read about the communion of saints, this was also the belief of the Jews…go back and read again. The apostles creed is still said not only by catholics but other denominations as well the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Also, those who are saints are the ones who did God’s will, who fought the good fight. As we pray for one another, they pray for us…the communion of saints. The wedding at Cana, who brought the people to Jesus…Mary. And what did she say…“Do whatever He tells you”. Yes, the only way to God the Father is Jesus, but the best way to Jesus is through Mary. It is the way He came to us. It is through Mary that God chose to send His Only Begotten Son. Read the Bible Hail full of grace. Highly favored daughter of God. Full of grace means full of God’s grace…if one is full of grace there is no room for sin. Out of all the women who have ever lived or who will ever live God chose Mary.
 
hansard said:
No, CarlaOLS, it doesn’t make sense.
You posted:
"Now even if I had access (as of course we do with God) would my word or request carry alot of weight with the president.
Hmm, I think not."

Why not? Why would your request not carry weight if you had direct access? Why would it be better to go through somebody else?.
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“Where two or three are gathered in my name …”

Why?

Why should I pray with anyone - won’t God hear my prayer alone? Yet Jesus told us to gather, to pray as a group to support each other in prayer. The difference between us is that I see the communion of saints as including those who have left this life and those stil here.

I also believe there are such things as merits and degrees of holiness.

God honors His saints by answering their prayers on our behalf.

Does that help you, my brother?
 
Lainey63 said:
Dead? Dead you say? They have eternal life. You better go back and read the Bible read about the communion of saints, this was also the belief of the Jews…go back and read again. The apostles creed is still said not only by catholics but other denominations as well the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Also, those who are saints are the ones who did God’s will, who fought the good fight. As we pray for one another, they pray for us…the communion of saints. The wedding at Cana, who brought the people to Jesus…Mary. And what did she say…“Do whatever He tells you”. Yes, the only way to God the Father is Jesus, but the best way to Jesus is through Mary. It is the way He came to us. It is through Mary that God chose to send His Only Begotten Son. Read the Bible Hail full of grace. Highly favored daughter of God. Full of grace means full of God’s grace…if one is full of grace there is no room for sin. Out of all the women who have ever lived or who will ever live God chose Mary.
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The Emperor doesnt believe in God so arguing the finer points ofthology with him is a rather pointelss escercise.l
 
budgie2 said:
I personally am a Catholic and never pray to any Saint apart from Mary, Christ and God the Father. My mum prays to the saints. It is permissible in our religion to pray to the saints however, I suppose it could take over our devotion to praying to Christ, or God the Father so we should do so in moderation.
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Where does the Church teach this?
 
I think that a lot of times many tend to have a hard time with prayer to the saints because they think of prayer and worship as the same thing, and may often use the words “prayer” and “worship” interchangeably. Worship is giving someone or something the honor that belongs to God alone. Prayer is the lifting up of our minds and hearts to some one (to God, an angel, or a saint). Prayer to God can be worship, but not all prayer is worship.

No one should ever worship anyone but God.
 
fix said:
Where does the Church teach this?
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I’m just telling you my personal habits. Christ and God is our saviour. The saints are not our saviours. Nevertheless there is a communion of saints in heaven and we can see the saints as our friends. I’ve currently got doubts whether everybody that has been canonised is a true saint so I would avoid praying to them on that point.
 
budgie2 said:
I’m just telling you my personal habits. Christ and God is our saviour. The saints are not our saviours. Nevertheless there is a communion of saints in heaven and we can see the saints as our friends. I’ve currently got doubts whether everybody that has been canonised is a true saint so I would avoid praying to them on that point.
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If the Church declares them a saint that is infallible.
 
Yes, it’s the old “What you bind on earth…” theory, and it is good for just about anything. Frankly, I’m getting a bit sick of really dodgy concepts being “bound on earth”.
 
hansard said:
Yes, it’s the old “What you bind on earth…” theory, and it is good for just about anything. Frankly, I’m getting a bit sick of really dodgy concepts being “bound on earth”.
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If the Church is wrong about the saints how can i trust them to be right about the ressurection? The Divnity of Christ? The nature of the Eucharist?

BTW- “bound on earth” are the words of Jesus Christ. how does that translate into a “theory”?
 
budgie2 said:
I’m just telling you my personal habits. Christ and God is our saviour. The saints are not our saviours. Nevertheless there is a communion of saints in heaven and we can see the saints as our friends. I’ve currently got doubts whether everybody that has been canonised is a true saint so I would avoid praying to them on that point.
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Can you give us a list of other doctrines of the Church that are doubtful? What seperates a “doubtful” Doctrine from a “Legitimate” Doctrine?
 
hansard said:
Yes, it’s the old “What you bind on earth…” theory, and it is good for just about anything. Frankly, I’m getting a bit sick of really dodgy concepts being “bound on earth”.
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I must ask who is the authority in these matters?
 
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