Singing at Mass: "traditional"?

[malphono]

Why would I submit it to the holy office?

Did you happen to notice the word schism?

Whatever, believe what you wish. Not my problem.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Oh, please.

Our spirituality is not dependent upon external actions. Jesus told that when we want to pray go into our rooms and shut the door. The term “active participation” was originally placed in the context of the music ministry. The ‘spirit of Vatican II’ hijacked the phrase and applied it to lectors, offeratory hymns, handshakes, and laity handling the consecrated hosts.

Still, externals and physicals ARE a part of Catholic tradition, though not all externals currently employed in the offering of the Holy Sacrifice ARE (ie, they are innovations).

I’ve a friend who was born and brought up in Germany, coming to this country after WWII. She was always bemused by congregations that don’t sing and said that in Germany, they rattled the rafters.

What I don’t like are those who insist that I’m not participating if I don’t bellow the responses.

 

[DavidPalm]

It is very simple, any person or group who denies a single dogma, by that very fact becomes a heretic, and the Orthodox deny many dogmas.

It’s a good and important discussion, but with all due respect this isn’t the right thread for it.

 

[Ockham]

Still, externals and physicals ARE a part of Catholic tradition, though not all externals currently employed in the offering of the Holy Sacrifice ARE (ie, they are innovations).

Agreed. I am not suggesting the removal of externals, they are deep in our Catholic heritage. The context of inward spirituality in Cluny’s post suggested it isn’t compatible with participation. That’s a common retort among the NO promoters and one I disagree with entirely. There have been many a NO where although I said all the responses and sang the hymns, my mind was somewhere else. Of course you could do the same thing at a Tridentine Mass, but it isn’t true that silence is necessarily absence of participation.

 

[Layman]

In Britain, the congregation tend to let the deacon say the responses. I’ve been told at this is because the Mass might be on a side-altar and they didn’t want to disturb others in the church.

Plus I have a sense that the British are reserved, anyway!

Also, good point about the Irish having to keep quiet during times of persecution. The same probably applied to Catholic Recusants in Britain after the Reformation; attending Mass could get you killed.

 

[Yours_Truly]

Did you happen to notice the word schism?

Yes, I saw the word schism, and I also saw the word heresy. They are schismatics because they deny the dogma of the Primacy of the Pope, which also makes them heretics.

Whatever, believe what you wish. Not my problem.

It’s not about what I want to believe. Everyone with even a basic knowledge of the Catholic faith should know that a group who denies 13 councils and multiple dogmas is a heretical group.

But I guess in the days of Vatican II, which have managed to make what was always perfectly clear, perfectly confusion, it should not surprise us to find people such as yourself who do not understand that those who deny dogmas of the faith are heretics.

But I am curious what your definition of heresy is?

 

[malphono]

Yes, I saw the word schism, and I saw the word heresy.

Again, (and this is my final comment on the matter), I suggest you submit your query as to whether or not the Orthodox are heretics to the Holy Office.

 

[Yours_Truly]

Again, (and this is my final comment on the matter), I suggest you submit your query as to whether or not the Orthodox are heretics to the Holy Office.

Why would I do that? That’s like submitting a query to the Holy Office to ask if Baptism is one of the seven sacraments. This basic stuff were are talking about.

Here’s one more quote for you to reject It again comes from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Catholic Encyclopedia: ** "The term Orthodox Greek Church, or even simply the Orthodox Church, designates, without distinction of speech, or race, or nationality, all the existing Churches of the Byzantine Rite, separated from Rome. They claim to be a unit and to have the same body of doctrine, which they say was that of the primitive Church. As a matter of fact, the orthodoxy of these Churches is what we call heterodoxy**, since it rejects the Papal Infallibility, and the Papal Supremacy, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, that of Purgatory, etc. However, by a polite fiction, educated Catholics give them the name of Orthodox which they have usurped. The term Schismatic Greek Church is synonymous with the above; nearly everybody uses it, but it is at times inexpedient to do so, if one would avoid wounding the feelings of those whose conversion is aimed at.

Heterodoxy: “the state of being at variance with established doctrines or beliefs.”

I’m curious, where in the world did you get the idea that the Orthodox are not heretics? Did you read it somewhere, or did you come up with it by yourself?

 

[catharina]

A few of the current threads on CAF and some personal observations about singing at Mass has got me wondering: is singing at Mass (by the congregation) part of the Catholic tradition as experienced by most?

My observations are, in general, a decided lack of participation at both sung EF and OF Masses.

As far as the EF Masses go, my experience is limited to two parishes.

In my own, the congregants normally don’t sing those parts of the ordinary that they might be expected to because they are familiar with the tunes after hearing them over and over. Our pastor has made it known that he wants the congregation to join in; to little avail. The choir does all the singing, except for one or two souls, like me, who join in with the Creed. For the Creed at least, the choir is in synch with what’s happening on the altar, and our priest does not sit - he sings as well; based on these facts there is really no reason for anyone not to sing.

At another parish’s EF, I notice a limited amount of participation during the Mass, and slightly more so during the Creed. Included in the bulletin is a copy of the recessional hymn, which most join in singing.

So, regarding the EF: could it be that a biased appreciation of the Low Mass as the ‘norm’ leads the congregation to avoid singing? Was it common in the old days for people to join in, or generally to remain silent in the missa cantata?

As far as to the OF goes, I’ve been to many parishes through the years. There is a wide variability. Some sing the hymns and responsorial psalm. At some, there is little to no singing except for the choir or cantor. I think it’s fair to say that, in general, the older the congregation tends to be, the less singing one hears.

So, I have reached the tentative conclusion from these observations that older Catholics are quite unused to singing at all during Mass; I also surmise that this is a direct result of the lingering influence of the Low Mass ‘mindset’ of quietness during the Mass.

Admittedly my experience is limited geographically to the greater NYC region.

Hm. Guessing I qualify as an older Catholic (at 63 yrs) and I have many memories of sung Masses in the 1950s and 1960s. Two forms prevailed: polyphonic Masses that were gloriously sung, delicate, strong, joyful and centuries-old; and Masses based in sung Gregorian Chant, gloriously beautiful in the simplicity of the chant. What might have derailed the sung Mass is that most of the music used now is “new” to all.

 

[bilop]

I’m curious, where in the world did you get the idea that the Orthodox are not heretics? Did you read it somewhere, or did you come up with it by yourself?

The Church does not consider the Orthodox heretics, take it up with Rome if you don’t agree. A Catholic is allowed to accept the sacraments from an Orthodox priest if no Catholic priest is available.

The general understanding is that they don’t actually disagree on any real doctrine, there are just misunderstandings as to how the two sides (Latin and Eastern) express the same ideas.

Good Bless

 

[Yours_Truly]

The Church does not consider the Orthodox heretics, take it up with Rome if you don’t agree. A Catholic is allowed to accept the sacraments from an Orthodox priest if no Catholic priest is available.

The fact that we can receive the Sacraments from an Orthodox in time of necessity does not mean they are not heretics. No one is denying the validity of the orders, only their faith. Why? Because they deny many dogmas of the Church which makes them heretics.

The general understanding is that they don’t actually disagree on any real doctrine, there are just misunderstandings as to how the two sides (Latin and Eastern) express the same ideas.

Are you saying that Papal Infallibility is not a real doctrine? What about the Immaculate Conception and the doctrines infallibly defined at the previous 13 General concils of the Church? Are these not real doctrines?

It is really amazing to find that some Catholics are unaware that a group who denies multiple infallibly defined dogmas are heretics. This isn’t a subtle point of speculative theology, this is basic stuff.

 

[catharina]

Wow. Here’s a thought, a suggestion.

How about taking your off-topic discussion to a NEW THREAD?

 

[The_Prodigal]

I’ve a friend who was born and brought up in Germany, coming to this country after WWII. She was always bemused by congregations that don’t sing and said that in Germany, they rattled the rafters.

I am told that Luther and his followers placed a great emphasis on hymns and singing, and I can only assume that this tradition is carried on in Lutheran churches today (I’ve never been inside one, so I have no first hand knowledge). This makes me wonder if that tradition of lively hymn singing had some influence on Catholics in those areas where Lutheranism and Catholicism were and are in close contact.

Once again we have the notion expressed that ONLY through conspicious verbal articulation can people “participate.” …SIGH…

Not at all. I know that private, silent devotion has its place. I’m just trying to understand (perhaps from the historical point of view) the lack of singing that I perceive. After all, as a couple of posters in this thread have indicated, signing by the congregation has been recommended by the Church for years.

 

[Cat]

Hm. Guessing I qualify as an older Catholic (at 63 yrs) and I have many memories of sung Masses in the 1950s and 1960s. Two forms prevailed: polyphonic Masses that were gloriously sung, delicate, strong, joyful and centuries-old; and Masses based in sung Gregorian Chant, gloriously beautiful in the simplicity of the chant. What might have derailed the sung Mass is that most of the music used now is “new” to all.

Look at the dates in the OCP hymnals–most of these “new” hymns are 30-40 years old.

How long does it take to get used to “new” hymns?

 

[Layman]

Well, if they’re of the ‘Bind Us Together’ variety, the answer is never.

 

[Ockham]

Look at the dates in the OCP hymnals–most of these “new” hymns are 30-40 years old.

How long does it take to get used to “new” hymns?

In the CBW there are hymns written in the eighties on one page and lyrics written in the sixth century on the next.

 

[daeve]

Back to the original discussion…I grew up in the 50s and 60s, and we sang our little lungs out on a daily basis. Everyone from 3rd grade up better be belting out the songs, or expecting a cooked goose back in the classroom.

The Latin Mass at my parish is pretty full every week, but so are the others. At all the Masses in that parish, people are singing. The choir sings most of the Latin Mass, but there are several die-hard old ladies like myself who sing along. I couldn’t sing any of those old Latin songs or the chants, but if the words are in front on me, I’m there. I was hesitant the first time, but a couple of ladies around me were singing, and I joined them.

I like singing at Mass, Latin or English. And I’ll probably keep doing it as long as the pastor doesn’t come right out and say stop it.

 

[Appleby]

Back to the original discussion…I grew up in the 50s and 60s, and we sang our little lungs out on a daily basis. Everyone from 3rd grade up better be belting out the songs, or expecting a cooked goose back in the classroom.

The Latin Mass at my parish is pretty full every week, but so are the others. At all the Masses in that parish, people are singing. The choir sings most of the Latin Mass, but there are several die-hard old ladies like myself who sing along. I couldn’t sing any of those old Latin songs or the chants, but if the words are in front on me, I’m there. I was hesitant the first time, but a couple of ladies around me were singing, and I joined them.

I like singing at Mass, Latin or English. And I’ll probably keep doing it as long as the pastor doesn’t come right out and say stop it.

Me too.

 

[rwoehmke]

Congregational singing and responses to some of the prayers at the TLM were practiced in some parishes well before 1950. It was part of the “dialogue Mass” which was used in some dioceses. I know in the early 1940’s we sang at my parish in the diocese of Detroit. The singing included the Latin responses to the priest’s prayers. We were using St. Basil’s Hymn Book. We did not say the opening prayers at the foot of the altar. That dialogue was kept between the priest and the servers.