singing during Mass

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At the church I attend now, there is a choir that sings the entrance songs and songs at the appropisate time.
My quostion is : should the singing end as soon as the priest is ready to continue with the liturge ?
This choir continues singing until all the stanzas have been sung.
My wife was an organist in the cathredral in Erie PA and she was instructe to watch the celebrant and stop plsaying ASAP so as not to hold up the celebrant
What are the rules ?
 
Let’s see what the Church, in the GIRM, says about the Entrance Hymn:
  1. After the people have gathered, the Entrance chant begins as the priest enters with the deacon and ministers. The purpose of this chant is to open the celebration, foster the unity of those who have been gathered, introduce their thoughts to the mystery of the liturgical season or festivity, and accompany the procession of the priest and ministers.
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So, it’s not simply travelling music. It’s actually our first act of worship. A hymn has a distinct beginning, middle and end and if you don’t sing all the verses you don’t get the entire message, This is particularly striking when we are singing about the Trinity and stop before the verse about the Holy Spirit – something that happens way too often with the Entrance Hymn.

As one person put it in an article on this topic, “Singing all the verses takes about 35-40 seconds after Fr. gets to the chair. 35-40 seconds is only significant when you’re in cardiac arrest, not when you’re waiting to make the Sign of the Cross.”

Ideally, when Fr gets to his chair, he should pick up his hymnal and sing too.
 
Phemie said:
Let’s see what the Church, in the GIRM, says about the Entrance Hymn:

So, it’s not simply travelling music. It’s actually our first act of worship. A hymn has a distinct beginning, middle and end and if you don’t sing all the verses you don’t get the entire message, This is particularly striking when we are singing about the Trinity and stop before the verse about the Holy Spirit – something that happens way too often with the Entrance Hymn.

As one person put it in an article on this topic, “Singing all the verses takes about 35-40 seconds after Fr. gets to the chair. 35-40 seconds is only significant when you’re in cardiac arrest, not when you’re waiting to make the Sign of the Cross.”

Ideally, when Fr gets to his chair, he should pick up his hymnal and sing too.
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Sometimes the most significant verse is the last. I also think the Processional Hymn should be somewhat timed. If the aisle of the church is short, a long hymn should not be sung. Most music directors know how long a song should be to accompany the procession and allow for some singing once the presider gets to the altar. It works the opposite way too. If for some reason the procession is long, for example last week we had the Boy Scouts who were receiving religious awards process in, it would have been silly if the song was over before the presider got half way down the aisle.

I do totally agree that the Processional Hymn is not traveling music. It’s purpose is to prepare us to celebrate the Eucharist and open our hearts and minds to God. Along those lines…I hate it when the cantor announces at the beginning “let us stand and greet our celebrant.” We are not greeting anyone, except God, but that happens when we enter the church not when the priest walks down the aisle.
 
Some priests ask the musicians to sing the whole song. They may be just following directions.
 
Some hymns (mostly older ones) end with a Trinitarian invocation (e.g. “Glory be to God the Father, glory be to God the Son, glory to the Holy Spirit, glory to the Three in One…” from Sing of Mary) which recalls that tradition of the Church to end psalms with the “Glory be”. I would always recommend including the last verse of such hymns, so if the hymns are going to be cut short, cut out middle verses.
 
In an ideal world, the choir would be singing the Introit of the Mass, which is a prayer proper to the Mass being offered. Of course the choir would finish it. The Introit is a real part of the Mass, and the choir’s singing of it, and our attentive listening in the congregation is real prayer. When we sing the chants of the Mass, we are really praying the actual prayers of the Mass. As much as I love to sing hymns, I love to pray more!
 
John_Fitzgerald said:
At the church I attend now, there is a choir that sings the entrance songs and songs at the appropisate time.
My quostion is : should the singing end as soon as the priest is ready to continue with the liturge ?
This choir continues singing until all the stanzas have been sung.
My wife was an organist in the cathredral in Erie PA and she was instructe to watch the celebrant and stop plsaying ASAP so *** not to hold up the celebrant
What are the rules ?
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John,

If the hymn option is chosen, there is no rule on how many verses may be sung, or when the singing “must” stop.

My personal rule is that when we’re ready to move along to the next part of the Mass, we finish whatever verse is being sung and end it there. But there is no right or wrong way do this. Some hymns might be too long to sing all the verses, and others might require all the verses. On Epiphany, we sing “We Three Kings” and I insist that no matter what, we sing all the verses–because it would make no sense to only sing about 1 or 2 of the gifts offered to the Christ-child without the other(s).

The bottom line is that it’s up to the priest celebrating that Mass just how many verses should be sung, or what the “signal” should be to stop the singing. Of the two churches you’ve described neither one is more right or more wrong than the other.
 
I wish to thank all the persons who replied to my question.I feel better because I understand the purpose of singing. I admit that I do not care for singing unless it is very well done. I will now swallow my prejudice and accept what is being done at my Church.
John Fitzgerald
 
I have a kind of funny story about something like this. I sing in a choir that does traditional music (mostly Renaissance polyphony and a bit of chant).

We were singing a Requiem by Victoria for a parish’s annual mass for the dead. I think that the priest was trying to keep the mass short, because as soon as the he was ready to move to the next part of mass he just started talking, whether we were still singing or not.

Unlike a hymn with multiple verses, it’s really hard to stop a complicated polyphonic piece in the middle, so there was at least one point in the mass when the priest talked over us until we were done (after the Offertory I think).

We were up in the choir loft and had no real way of communicating with him, so we just did our best and shortened what we could. It still sounded great though.
 
solayan said:
I have a kind of funny story about something like this. I sing in a choir that does traditional music (mostly Renaissance polyphony and a bit of chant).

We were singing a Requiem by Victoria for a parish’s annual mass for the dead. I think that the priest was trying to keep the mass short, because as soon as the he was ready to move to the next part of mass he just started talking, whether we were still singing or not.

Unlike a hymn with multiple verses, it’s really hard to stop a complicated polyphonic piece in the middle, so there was at least one point in the mass when the priest talked over us until we were done (after the Offertory I think).

We were up in the choir loft and had no real way of communicating with him, so we just did our best and shortened what we could. It still sounded great though.
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During the Offertory part of the Mass, the prayers over the gifts and the incensing (if there is one), the choir can sing over what the priest is saying and doing. They usually stop when he washes his hands.
 
Many times, it depends on the presiding priest and what he wants - usually not what the musicians choose to do. Some priests only want one verse of a hymn played and then end it. Others, just two and then others want all the verses played. In some parishes priests have more of a say in all aspects of the music than what the congregation would think.
 
My choir Director usually asks the priest who is celebrating Mass to wait for at least one verse to be sung before he even starts the procession. Father sometimes even takes this request to heart 😃
 
This is a difficult thing for musicians (cantor and instrumentalist). We try to watch, but the cantor usually has their back to the priest. So it’s up to the pianist, who is trying to watch the notes and the cantor, too! My problem as a pianist is not so much that we sing too many verses, but that we cut it off too quickly, and the priest is up there with no music while he is performing his duties. I don’t really mind silence in Mass, but I always feel bad that we didn’t time it better.

I think that it can depend on the architecture of the church building. In churches with balconies, the organist will use a mirror to keep an eye on the priest, and good organists are used to this. (Many older Protestant churches have choir lofts and organs in a back balcony.) But most pianists like me are NOT used to this! So I really dislike playing up in a balcony because I have to rely on the cantor, and in this day and age, many cantors are NOT used to singing from the back of the room.

In my home parish, we have a grand piano, and everyone likes it positioned differently. Some of the pianists turn the “open” part AWAY from the congregation so it’s not so loud, but this places the pianist facing AWAY from both the priest and the cantor. So I like to turn the piano so that I am FACING the priest and the cantor and see what is going on. But I really don’t like moving a full-sized grand piano before Mass!

So in an ideal world, the Catholic church building that uses the OF of the Mass would be designed so that the musicians could SEE the priest and the priest could SEE the musicians, and they could communicate with each through eye-contact, head nods, and even waves of the hand.

I would beg the congregation to be patient with us! It’s not easy sometimes, especially when the liturgical director decides to try out new Mass parts on the congregation!
 
FrDavid96 said:
My personal rule is that when we’re ready to move along to the next part of the Mass, we finish whatever verse is being sung and end it there. But there is no right or wrong way do this. Some hymns might be too long to sing all the verses, and others might require all the verses. .
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This is how I do it, although I have been to parishes where the musician is a strict believer in every verse being sung. The one thing I would add, is that do not always do verse one, verse two, etc. I have no problem skipping to a verse that is most suited to the readings of the day. I know in advance that the entrance is two verses, as is the exit. The meditation hymn is always only one verse long, then we pause for silence while the vessels are purified.

I think John had an excellent question and appreciate discussing this with others.
 
Joannm said:
During the Offertory part of the Mass, the prayers over the gifts and the incensing (if there is one), the choir can sing over what the priest is saying and doing. They usually stop when he washes his hands.
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The problem was that the Offertory took less time than the Offertory in the mass setting we were using, so we were still singing when he was done washing his hands and he started right into the Eucharistic prayer. I think he realized what happened though because he didn’t roll over the Sanctus or the Agnus Dei.
 
If music enhances the Mass, I have no problem with it “runing long.” Its actually when a cantor/musician decides to only sing 2 verses and there is a long period of silence b/c they finished too soon that bothers me.

For our pastor’s 40th anniversary (and Most Holy Trinity), we did the Vaughn Williams arrangement of Old One Hundreth as the processional. (All People That on Earth Do Dwell) with string quartet, trumpet, and timpani.

This was composed for the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II. It is 5-6 verses (can’t remember exactly) but each one has distinct harmony and orchestration so you can’t just end it anywhere. Out main aisle is about 100 feet- not exactly Westminster Cathedral.

Our pastor elaborates the procession and takes hit time at each Mass but even he was at his seat by verse 4.
 
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