Sinless ( kecharitomene)?

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can this word kecharitomene in the Greek tell us in the basic sense of Mary being sinless at the time the angels greets her… without taking the perfection of her all the way to the conception of Mary?
 
adolfo123 said:
can this word kecharitomene in the Greek tell us in the basic sense of Mary being sinless at the time the angels greets her… without taking the perfection of her all the way to the conception of Mary?
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Kecharitomene means that the one being addressed is totally full of grace in the same fashion as a vessel that is filled to overflowing. If Mary was born with the stain of original sin how could she possibly be in such a state of grace?

We can’t have one without the other.
 
Hi adolpho,

This is the passive perfect participle of a verb derived from *charis *(favor or grace), applying to an action that started in the past with effect on the present. It means “having been favored [by God]”. The form used implies a permanent state. The Latin has no verb derived from *gratia *so it used gratia plena, whence our “full of grace”.

Verbum
 
Verbum 👍

adolfo123,

A perfect participle is where a verb is transformed (in Greek), into a noun. eg: a verbal-noun; We do this in English, but without special spellings to indicate the change:

eg: The Judge sat at the table;
The main thing to recognize about “The Judge” is what he does – obviously, – to judge.

So, when the Angel says “Chaire KechartomenH” literally the angel has called out a formal greeting “Rejoice (Chaire) XXX”

In Latin, the greeting “rejoice” followed by a formal title, corresponds to “Hail XXX” – with XXX usually the emperor’s title, etc.

So, in one sense, we can look at “rejoice” as merely “hello” in a formal way – and in another, the greeting is a mark of affection or love or at minimum special (formal) respect. That an angel respects a human being is quite a shock.

Also, the formal greeting word sounds much like the root verb of Ke-Charto-menH; eg: the idea of charis.
In particular, it is the same family of word from which we get (in english) – “charity”
Charity is Love, not merely giving to the poor – Latin: Ubi Caritas?

So that the greeting is followed by a parallel idea which is Mary’s title.

In the old testament, there is an expression used in very tender encounters between people of charity (a bond of true love).
David uses it with respect to Saul’s son, Jonathan, eg: he says
“if I-have-found-favor (grace)” in your eyes – so that is a Hebrew expression of David calling to mind the love that Jonathan had for David, his friend.

In Esther, and the like, such expressions are where the King finds a profound (not-only-sexual) love for a woman. She is his preferred one, for which he will grant favors that no other could receive.

So, with respect to the word – the Angel is calling Mary by a Name; that is by a very, very, formal title; which indicates she is the one whom God has already endowed (in the past) a gracefulness to, which affects the present, and will continue to affect the future.

The word is the same kind of word as, Te-Tele-s-tai said from the cross – it does not refer to an action which is over and done with, but with one having permanent consequences; I would speculate, one could even translate – she who has consummated grace;

Peace to you.
 
The word *kecharitomene *could refer to any grace or favor, and not necessarily to sinlessness, though that meaning is certainly possible. For a descendant of Adam to be conceived sinless would be a great grace or favor indeed. The word kecharitomene also indicates that the Virgin Mary received her grace or favor in the past, sometime prior to the angel’s visit, but exactly how far back in the past cannot be determined from the text alone. It could have been 5 minutes prior to the angel’s visit, at her conception (as Catholics believe), or any time in between.
 
I talked to a greek froend of mine about this today actually. He is Orthodox raised reading the Greek Scriptures Septuagint and he is well schooled in ancient greek.

He said the actual meaning is this:

“Hail you who are full of grace”

However he said he believes the word is actually ancient and rooted in the graces of greek lore.

So he thinks the meaning is full of grace as in graceful not grace as in divine grace.
 
DD2007 said:
I talked to a greek froend of mine about this today actually. He is Orthodox raised reading the Greek Scriptures Septuagint and he is well schooled in ancient greek.

He said the actual meaning is this:

“Hail you who are full of grace”

However he said he believes the word is actually ancient and rooted in the graces of greek lore.

So he thinks the meaning is full of grace as in graceful not grace as in divine grace.
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The trouble with this interpretation is that none of the ECF’s hold to such a belief.
 
foundthelight said:
Early Church Fathers.
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Oh good!

I thought it was something like Evangelical Church Federation or something I haven’t heard of.

That’s good. You see. He’s a large furry Orthodox fellow anyway. He just said that’s what he thought based on the origin of the word.

However, as stated at the other place. If he’s wrong it’s not the first time. Just throwing my two cents in. 🙂
 
DD2007 said:
Oh good!

I thought it was something like Evangelical Church Federation or something I haven’t heard of.

That’s good. You see. He’s a large furry Orthodox fellow anyway. He just said that’s what he thought based on the origin of the word.

However, as stated at the other place. If he’s wrong it’s not the first time. Just throwing my two cents in. 🙂
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😃 🤷

I use both words, but – it’s for pun, not because of any ancient Greek I came across! 😉 And I think, to be graceful in the sight of God would require a supernatural and soulful movement to catch so Holy an Eye. 😉
 
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