Sinless Mary. Help me understand

[Rocks_91]

Catholic theology is so deep that I find myself getting lost and revisiting the basic tenets of the faith. So I need some help here.

Mary was predestined to be sinless.
Sin is an act of the will, she chose to remain sinless out of free will.
It was an increase of God’s grace in her that enabled her to be sinless.

Can someone tear these three things apart and piece them together slowly to help me understand how the three - predestination, grace, and free will are compatible here.

And also help me understand why it was possible for Mary and not for others? Is it possible for others also?

 

[CountrySteve]

Catholic theology is so deep that I find myself getting lost and revisiting the basic tenets of the faith. So I need some help here.

Mary was predestined to be sinless.
Sin is an act of the will, she chose to remain sinless out of free will.
It was an increase of God’s grace in her that enabled her to be sinless.

Can someone tear these three things apart and piece them together slowly to help me understand how the three - predestination, grace, and free will are compatible here.

**And also help me understand why it was possible for Mary and not for others? Is it possible for others also?/**quote]

it’s not possible for us cause we are all born with sin she was not, God bless

 

[CountrySteve]

And also help me understand why it was possible for Mary and not for others? Is it possible for others also?

it’s not possible for us cause we are all born with sin she was not, God bless

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Catholic theology is so deep that I find myself getting lost and revisiting the basic tenets of the faith. So I need some help here.

Mary was predestined to be sinless.
Sin is an act of the will, she chose to remain sinless out of free will.
It was an increase of God’s grace in her that enabled her to be sinless.

Can someone tear these three things apart and piece them together slowly to help me understand how the three - predestination, grace, and free will are compatible here.

And also help me understand why it was possible for Mary and not for others? Is it possible for others also?

The relationship between predestination, grace, and free will is a very old and very difficult subject. A Catholic can safely say we believe in all three, but exactly what they mean and how they connect to each other is highly controversial, and you will find a lot of diversity among Catholics on the subject, and even diversity on the issue of how much diversity is allowed.

On the one hand my view is that in the current Magisterial climate any theory on the subject that has not been expressly condemned and which does not deny any of those three elements wholesale seems to be permitted, and we should defend the right of Catholics not to be called or implied to be heretics just because they have come to a different theological conclusion than someone else has.

On the other hand I do have a view of my own, which combines different elements of the two major Catholic schools of thought on this subject that are often brought up, the Thomist school and the Molinist school (and some elements that wouldn’t fit neatly into either). I’m not entirely sure about that theory though, because I’m not totally confident about my own grasp on the subject and my own intelligence.

In my tentative view the basic outline of the connections between your three elements, in your example of Mary, would be that God gave Mary special graces which, as an adult, she could have freely accepted or rejected, but she freely chose to always accept that grace because she had been predestined to do so by God. Thus you’d have God’s sovereign plan of predestination over all, with the giving of grace as something outside Mary’s control and the acceptance of that grace as something in her control in one sense but still subsidiary to God’s plan that she accept it.

This idea a great many Catholics would reject and hold instead that God’s “predestination” of Mary’s acceptance of grace comes logically subsequent to, not logically prior to God’s knowledge that Mary will in fact accept that grace.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

it’s not possible for us cause we are all born with sin she was not, God bless

It’s not possible for us to avoid being conceived in Original Sin, because this grace simply was not given to us. This is not the kind of grace Mary could have chosen to reject though. It was more analogous to infant baptism, only instead of taking away Original Sin it preserved Mary from it.

Because we were conceived in Original Sin we are fallen creatures prone to also fall into personal sin. We shouldn’t forget though that Mary had free will and could also have fallen into sin, she just didn’t have as much of an innate tendency to do so.

Technically it’s logically possible even for a fallen human being to live without personal sin, because God gives us enough grace to resist any temptation every time, and we have the power to freely accept that grace. If we can resist temptation in any single instance, that can be multiplied to every instance. However, we know as a practical matter that as fallen creatures we will not in fact always do this consistently, at least in “minor”, venial matters.

 

[Equites_Christi]

In my tentative view the basic outline of the connections between your three elements, in your example of Mary, would be that God gave Mary special graces which, as an adult, she could have freely accepted or rejected, but she freely chose to always accept that grace because she had been predestined to do so by God.

How do you reconcile “freely chose” with “had been predestined to do so”?

 

[George_F]

This is wonderfull stuff -
The time for the Incarnation is at hand.
Of all women God prepared Mary from her conception to be the Mother of the Incarnate Word.
The Angel Gabriel announces: “Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with thee.”
Mary wonders at this salutation.
The Angel assures her: “Fear not . . . you shall conceive in your womb, and give birth to a Son.”
Mary is troubled for she has made a vow of virginity.
The Angel answers that she will conceive by the power of the Holy Spirit, and her Son will be called the Son of God.
The Incarnation awaits Mary’s consent.
Mary answers: “Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Be it done unto me according to your word.”
The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
*Mary gave her consent!
GOD already knew what Mary would do but allowed her Free will.
A mastery is a truth reveled by GOD that we do not fully understand.
I can live with that!

 

[Aelred_Minor]

How do you reconcile “freely chose” with “had been predestined to do so”?

Basically by looking at the issue from different angles or at different levels.

 

[dcharles]

How do you reconcile “freely chose” with “had been predestined to do so”?

from the CCC
600. To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace:

 

[Aelred_Minor]

from the CCC
600. To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace:

A wonderful example of “Vaticanese”.

 

[ufamtobie]

Catholic theology is so deep that I find myself getting lost and revisiting the basic tenets of the faith. So I need some help here.

Mary was predestined to be sinless.
Sin is an act of the will, she chose to remain sinless out of free will.
It was an increase of God’s grace in her that enabled her to be sinless.

Can someone tear these three things apart and piece them together slowly to help me understand how the three - predestination, grace, and free will are compatible here.

And also help me understand why it was possible for Mary and not for others? Is it possible for others also?

Hi Rock,

Roman 15: 12 Wherefore as by one man(Adam) sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. 13 For until the law sin was in the world; but sin was not imputed, when the law was not. 14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam,** who is a figure of him who was to come(Jesus Christ)**.

Rock, the above scripture states that Adam was a figure of Him to Come… And if Adam who was created without sin was a figure of Christ to come, what about Eve? Eve was a figure Of Virgin Mary to come. As Eve was not created in sin, so to Mary was not born into sin, in order to bare the Son of God.

Rock, you are correct the Catholic Church is very deep there is no other Church like it, why? because it is the only Church Christ founded on Rock over 2000 years go.

Ufam Tobie