Sinless Mary

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LoganBice

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Could someone help give me biblical proof or reference to the sinless nature of Mary? I fully believe in the Church teaching on it all but when defending it against Protastant claims it’s near impossible to convince them when they won’t use any other source besides the bible.

Thank you God Bless
 
Hi again, LoganBice!

This is a good simple one to start with:
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. - Luke 1:28
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The “full of grace” is a clear indication that she was sinless.

Hope that helps!
 
smichhertz said:
Hi again, LoganBice!

This is a good simple one to start with:

The “full of grace” is a clear indication that she was sinless.

Hope that helps!
Click to expand...
That makes perfect sense! facepalm I shoulda know that lol. 👍
 
LoganBice said:
Could someone help give me biblical proof or reference to the sinless nature of Mary? I fully believe in the Church teaching on it all but when defending it against Protastant claims it’s near impossible to convince them when they won’t use any other source besides the bible.

Thank you God Bless
Click to expand...
I know you want this proof, but you really will not get it in such a way that answers a person who wants a verse saying, “Mary had no sin, either actual or original”.

If Jesus said it and it was written in the Gospels, they think they would believe it.

But Jesus did say it in the Gospels: “If anyone hears you (apostles) they hear me”. Peter did tell the next Pope, who told the next, who told the next,… who told John Paul II, who told Benedict, who told Francis, who told your Bishop, who told your Pastor, who told you, and you “hear and believe”, so you have heard and believe Jesus.

I am one of you, now, a Catholic, because I came to recognize that apostolic succession and authority is real. After understanding and believing that authority, I came to the teachings about Mary, and believe them because I believe the apostles that are hear today teaching me all that Jesus commanded, all things that the sent Holy Spirit revealed to them. Before trusting today’s living apostles were really from Jesus, I did not believe Mary was “sinless” or “immaculate”, etc.

John Martin
 
John_Martin said:
I know you want this proof, but you really will not get it in such a way that answers a person who wants a verse saying, “Mary had no sin, either actual or original”.

If Jesus said it and it was written in the Gospels, they think they would believe it.

But Jesus did say it in the Gospels: “If anyone hears you (apostles) they hear me”. Peter did tell the next Pope, who told the next, who told the next,… who told John Paul II, who told Benedict, who told Francis, who told your Bishop, who told your Pastor, who told you, and you “hear and believe”, so you have heard and believe Jesus.

I am one of you, now, a Catholic, because I came to recognize that apostolic succession and authority is real. After understanding and believing that authority, I came to the teachings about Mary, and believe them because I believe the apostles that are hear today teaching me all that Jesus commanded, all things that the sent Holy Spirit revealed to them. Before trusting today’s living apostles were really from Jesus, I did not believe Mary was “sinless” or “immaculate”, etc.

John Martin
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That’s understandable. I guess in the end all we can do is pray for the conversion of our Protestant brothers and sisters.
 
smichhertz said:
Hi again, LoganBice!

This is a good simple one to start with:

The “full of grace” is a clear indication that she was sinless.

Hope that helps!
Click to expand...
“full of grace” is not necessarily how their Bible will translate it, but will say something like, “Hail, favored one, the Lord is with you”. Further, Protestants do not look at Grace as a substantial thing that God puts into you, so that you are infused with the Virtues, but look at the Grace of God as God’s opinion about you only.

John Martin
 
LoganBice said:
That’s understandable. I guess in the end all we can do is pray for the conversion of our Protestant brothers and sisters.
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I think we can do more, we can be so joyful and understanding of our actual encounter with the sent apostles that are with us, and joyful at being included into the People of God by these living apostolic witnesses, that those outside will wonder what it is like “inside” the Church. We are a People in the company of apostles; those outside think of themselves as individuals who are on their own trying to live and figure out and make a 2000 year old reality true for themselves.

Not everyone is skilled talking with those outside the church. In a way, it takes a very large amount of work understanding the Bible yourself, and your faith. And I think you have to be very aware of their “theological reasoning”. They have a goal for their theology and reading of Scripture that is different than your goal - seeing the difference in that real person who is a protestant helps in talking with them, and talking joyously with them.

I have a Southern Baptist co-worker/slight friend and I encourage him when he has a point that is actually Catholic (like his insistence that teaching should accompany baptism, and that baptism brings you into the church), but I hold back and do not encourage with things not Catholic (such as not understanding Baptism as a Sacrament that gives new birth into the People of God, where he would say it is your decision for Christ). In the end, he is getting from me the understanding that some Catholics, at least, really do know and love the Lord, that there is some element of truth in knowing a Catholic.

John Martin
 
I did a series of blogs The Bible & the Virgin: why Bible-believing Christians should honour Mary which might help you. There is no ‘killer’ verse which settles the argument but this from part one of the series is suggestive-
The angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favour with God.
Luke 1:30 NIV
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Gabriel here tells Mary that she has found favour. It might perhaps have been argued that Mary was a passive recipient of God’s bounty. Many Protestants seem to argue that any Jewish virgin would have been up to the task that Gabriel is about to unfold. Here, however an active not a passive term is used. Mary has done something which has caused God to look with favour upon her. No heroic act of our Lady is recorded prior to this so the plain, literal sense of Scripture would lead us to suppose that it is the entire way that Mary has lived her life up to this point that has caused God to look so positively upon her.
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If Mary was a sinner how did she find favour with God? If she was not a sinner prior to the Annunciation how likely is it that she would become one afterwards?
 
John_Martin said:
I think we can do more, we can be so joyful and understanding of our actual encounter with the sent apostles that are with us, and joyful at being included into the People of God by these living apostolic witnesses, that those outside will wonder what it is like “inside” the Church. We are a People in the company of apostles; those outside think of themselves as individuals who are on their own trying to live and figure out and make a 2000 year old reality true for themselves.

Not everyone is skilled talking with those outside the church. In a way, it takes a very large amount of work understanding the Bible yourself, and your faith. And I think you have to be very aware of their “theological reasoning”. They have a goal for their theology and reading of Scripture that is different than your goal - seeing the difference in that real person who is a protestant helps in talking with them, and talking joyously with them.

I have a Southern Baptist co-worker/slight friend and I encourage him when he has a point that is actually Catholic (like his insistence that teaching should accompany baptism, and that baptism brings you into the church), but I hold back and do not encourage with things not Catholic (such as not understanding Baptism as a Sacrament that gives new birth into the People of God, where he would say it is your decision for Christ). In the end, he is getting from me the understanding that some Catholics, at least, really do know and love the Lord, that there is some element of truth in knowing a Catholic.

John Martin
Click to expand...
That’s a good point. I’m am just now returning to the faith so I’m not sure I have the knowledge quite yet to evangelize but I hope I can one day. It’s funny actually one of the contributing factors to my return is because I go to school in Oklahoma and joined a fraternity and many of my brothers are strong fundamental and baptist Christians and because of their advance to being me out of catholisim it made me begin to look into my own faith to defend it and has helped being me back. Thanks be to God. I feel he used my Protestant friends to bring me closer to him and his church .
 
John_Martin said:
I know you want this proof, but you really will not get it in such a way that answers a person who wants a verse saying, “Mary had no sin, either actual or original”.

If Jesus said it and it was written in the Gospels, they think they would believe it.

But Jesus did say it in the Gospels: “If anyone hears you (apostles) they hear me”. Peter did tell the next Pope, who told the next, who told the next,… who told John Paul II, who told Benedict, who told Francis, who told your Bishop, who told your Pastor, who told you, and you “hear and believe”, so you have heard and believe Jesus.

I am one of you, now, a Catholic, because I came to recognize that apostolic succession and authority is real. After understanding and believing that authority, I came to the teachings about Mary, and believe them because I believe the apostles that are hear today teaching me all that Jesus commanded, all things that the sent Holy Spirit revealed to them. Before trusting today’s living apostles were really from Jesus, I did not believe Mary was “sinless” or “immaculate”, etc.

John Martin
Click to expand...
Welcome Home, John !!! Thank you for sharing this with us. It’s difficult for us ‘cradle’ Catholics to understand others seemingly indifference to the Mother of our Savior. We wouldn’t have HIM if it weren’t for Her. As you know now, we do know the difference between devotion to Mary and Worship of Her SON. She has helped me sooo many times in my life. The death of two young husbands, (one an accident, the other heart.) and 2 baby boys as well as both my parents and 2 brothers. She keeps us under Her ‘mantle’ and close to Her SON. She is the treasure of our Faith and I tell all my protestant friends that she is their Mother too. God Bless, Memaw
 
LoganBice said:
Could someone help give me biblical proof or reference to the sinless nature of Mary? I fully believe in the Church teaching on it all but when defending it against Protastant claims it’s near impossible to convince them when they won’t use any other source besides the bible.

Thank you God Bless
Click to expand...
There are several tracts in the non-forum area of Catholic.com. Try clicking the “library” button above to look for resources (below the “Youtube” link). 👍
 
John_Martin said:
I think we can do more, we can be so joyful and understanding of our actual encounter with the sent apostles that are with us, and joyful at being included into the People of God by these living apostolic witnesses, that those outside will wonder what it is like “inside” the Church. We are a People in the company of apostles; those outside think of themselves as individuals who are on their own trying to live and figure out and make a 2000 year old reality true for themselves.

Not everyone is skilled talking with those outside the church. In a way, it takes a very large amount of work understanding the Bible yourself, and your faith. And I think you have to be very aware of their “theological reasoning”. They have a goal for their theology and reading of Scripture that is different than your goal - seeing the difference in that real person who is a protestant helps in talking with them, and talking joyously with them.

I have a Southern Baptist co-worker/slight friend and I encourage him when he has a point that is actually Catholic (like his insistence that teaching should accompany baptism, and that baptism brings you into the church), but I hold back and do not encourage with things not Catholic (such as not understanding Baptism as a Sacrament that gives new birth into the People of God, where he would say it is your decision for Christ). In the end, he is getting from me the understanding that some Catholics, at least, really do know and love the Lord, that there is some element of truth in knowing a Catholic.

John Martin
Click to expand...
Thank you again and you can probably do more to help our separated brethren than we can because you understand where they are coming from. Prayers for you and all you touch! God Bless, Memaw
 
catholicscot said:
I did a series of blogs The Bible & the Virgin: why Bible-believing Christians should honour Mary which might help you. There is no ‘killer’ verse which settles the argument but this from part one of the series is suggestive-

If Mary was a sinner how did she find favour with God? If she was not a sinner prior to the Annunciation how likely is it that she would become one afterwards?
Click to expand...
This line of reasoning won’t work, because David, Noah, Abraham, and Moses are also spoken of as having found grace/favor in God’s eyes, and for sure none of them was immaculately conceived.
 
DaveBj said:
This line of reasoning won’t work, because David, Noah, Abraham, and Moses are also spoken of as having found grace/favor in God’s eyes, and for sure none of them was immaculately conceived.
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And none of them gave birth to the SON OF GOD. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
And none of them gave birth to the SON OF GOD. God Bless, Memaw
Click to expand...
True, but not to my point, which is to say that the expression “you have found favor with God” is not proof of being sinless, when the same expression was used for four obvious sinners.
 
DaveBj said:
True, but not to my point, which is to say that the expression “you have found favor with God” is not proof of being sinless, when the same expression was used for four obvious sinners.
Click to expand...
Were any of them greeted by an Angel, “Hail FULL of Grace?” God Bless, Memaw
 
DaveBj said:
True, but not to my point, which is to say that the expression “you have found favor with God” is not proof of being sinless, when the same expression was used for four obvious sinners.
Click to expand...
Right, the original translation differentiates the individuals discussed, the angel Gabriel’s salutation to Mary: “Chaire, Kecharitomene” gets more to the point.
 
It may be helpful to research about the Ark of the Covenant, and the holiness it contained.

Once you do that, then showing it to be the prefigurement of Mary, as the Ark of the New Covenant, should help to bridge their understanding.
 
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