Sinless Perfection?

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Remember when you first discovered you were a sinner ? Sort of like watching re-runs of your biggest blunders, with God sittng right next to you saying…“see that’s you…not pretty ay”

You sat in the dark while the reels kept rolling, tears streaming down your cheeks and eventually your head sunk into your shoulders and you could not look up, or for that matter look anywhere, but the carpet where you had knocked over your popcorn and coke.

Then as if by some ironic magic, you felt His arm around your shoulders; which did not help stem the tears, that just kept on falling like rain all around your feet, while your heart cried out for mercy, for grace… gradually the warm arm of God, seemed to send reassuring hope through your whole being…forgiven…

How many times have you been there…sure, it’s the human condition…yet, I heard that some folks believe in sinless perfection, sort of like seedless grapes…it is a human philosophy but is there Biblical verification for such a philosophy ?

🤷
Pophead.
 
Remember when you first discovered you were a sinner ? Sort of like watching re-runs of your biggest blunders, with God sittng right next to you saying…“see that’s you…not pretty ay”

You sat in the dark while the reels kept rolling, tears streaming down your cheeks and eventually your head sunk into your shoulders and you could not look up, or for that matter look anywhere, but the carpet where you had knocked over your popcorn and coke.

Then as if by some ironic magic, you felt His arm around your shoulders; which did not help stem the tears, that just kept on falling like rain all around your feet, while your heart cried out for mercy, for grace… gradually the warm arm of God, seemed to send reassuring hope through your whole being…forgiven…

How many times have you been there…sure, it’s the human condition…yet, I heard that some folks believe in sinless perfection, sort of like seedless grapes…it is a human philosophy but is there Biblical verification for such a philosophy ?

🤷
Pophead.
This is not a philosphy,but the teaching of Jesus.

Matt 5:48
48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Why would Jesus tell us to do something that is not possible? 🤷

Matt 19:21
21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Why would Jesus say that perfection can occur while in this life, if it cannot?

Eph 1:4-5
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Phil 2:14-16

14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life,
 
Warning:

Pophead has displayed a tendency to start threads in which he/she opens with a seemingly innocent question based on a specific Catholic concept or dogma, only to attack the responses or espouse his/her own theology (Calvinist, I believe?) from out of the blue.

I’m not saying don’t respond; just be prepared.

That said, let me start by pointing out, Pophead (as has been pointed out to you repeatedly), that Sola Scriptura is a false, man-made tradition. Thus, though there may be no explicit Scriptural mention of Mary’s sinlessness, for example, the fact that it is mostly the product of Sacred Tradition does not diminish its truth or importance.

Peace,
Dante
 
I’m not saying don’t respond; just be prepared.
That is the scout boy motto.

I am not really convinced of the Sola Scriptura idea, holding more to the autonomy of the Spirit of Christ.

I am neither Calvinist nor Protestant, though there are aspects to the writings of Jean Cauvin and Martin Luther that I currently find most enlightening and enjoy the writings of some of the Puritans. I read and enjoy C.S. Lewis, St. Augustine and pretty much anyone who expresses themselves simply and directly.

Over the years I have read Gordon H. Clark - by far the strongest proponent of Sola Scriptura but took a strong about turn awhile back after being bombarded by creedalist dogmatists, who were more keen in promoting their interpretations of creeds and catechisms, than learning truth. The logical inconsistency I find in those who claim to be strict Scripturalist dogmatists, and yet point a finger at Romanists (their term for Roman Catholics) who they accuse of using extra biblical writings and Papal bulls, just turned me right off both.

The Protestant vs Catholic (visa versa) flies in the face of Ecumenical Unity and is something that I personally try to avoid getting involved in.

It is however true that I have found that the Scriptures minus creeds, catechism, extra biblical sources be they apocryphal or Deutero…, Protestant, Reformed or Catholic are enough to give bring one to maturity in Christ.

Any claims at truth outside of the Scriptures need to be substantiated by logical argument and viewed in the context of existing truth. The law of contradiction, proper exegesis and rules of interpretation still apply, or else one is in danger of losing the ground which was established by ‘the foundation’ upon which the Apostle’s doctrine is established.

I believe that my theology is Christo-centric and Biblical in the sense that the Scriptures are only revealed by the Holy Spirit to the heart upon regeneration and prior whilst under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. His role is fundamental in my life and the cannon or measuring line by which I decide what is true and what is false. I hope I have not gone on too long.

My desire with this thread was to explore ‘repentance’ and ‘righteousness’ and the human philosophy of sinless perfection.

Suspicions are duly noted as I have already addressed matters regarding; autonomy, the host and the will of God etc.

This new change in direction is going to the foundation of our faith and I hope that it will still stimulate much thinking and rethinking and hopefully a little personal reformation on the side.

While I’m about it…confession time…I have been labelled an Absolute Predestinarian and a heretic…so watch out this little lion can bite.

Pophead.
👍
 
This is not a philosphy,but the teaching of Jesus.

Matt 5:48
48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Why would Jesus tell us to do something that is not possible? 🤷
He was using a strawman argument ? 🤷
 
Pophead,

My first inclination is to write a brilliant response to answer all your questions, however, the reality is I cannot and actually need not. This is because there is others who can do so much better than I and using a line from St. Thomas Aquinas their works make what ever I write look like straw.

The is one person in particular whose works I cannot suggest stronly enough, he is Our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI (Joseph Ratzinger). In regards to this particular thread I would suggest you read two works of his. First, “Introduction to Christianity” especially the section on “Forgiveness of Sin”. The second work (and I hope these will inspire you to read more of his writings) is, “Daughter of Zion”. While this second work is on Mariology I think it address parts of your question as well. But please do not limit your search to just these two works but expand your readings to all his writings (actually my prayer is that everyone in this forum would become more familiar with Our Holy Father’s writings).

I apologize if I seem to be avoiding contributing any of my own thoughts but the Pope and others do so much better I think I would be doing you and them a disservice by trying to do anything else.
 
Pophead,

My first inclination is to write a brilliant response to answer all your questions, however, the reality is I cannot and actually need not. This is because there is others who can do so much better than I and using a line from St. Thomas Aquinas their works make what ever I write look like straw.
You are most generous in your reply and I am deeply moved. I was introduced to the writings of Aquinas while studying the writings of Gordon H. Clark, and have subsequently gone on to the work of Dr. M. Sudduth, who wrote a goodly paper on Thomas Aquinas. (I consciously removed the title as I will do with Pope’s, Priests, Presidents and the like, for men are ALL sinners, no matter how fine they are considered to be by other men.) We must all stand before the judgment seat of God, whether big or small, and on that day we shall all be the same height - spiritually speaking. For what do we have that has not been given us of heaven.)
The is one person in particular whose works I cannot suggest stronly enough, he is Our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI (Joseph Ratzinger). In regards to this particular thread I would suggest you read two works of his. First, “Introduction to Christianity” especially the section on “Forgiveness of Sin”. The second work (and I hope these will inspire you to read more of his writings) is, “Daughter of Zion”. While this second work is on Mariology I think it address parts of your question as well. But please do not limit your search to just these two works but expand your readings to all his writings (actually my prayer is that everyone in this forum would become more familiar with Our Holy Father’s writings).
I appreciate your list of books on the topic, but having been given lists of books by dogmatist scripturalists, and having read creeds and catechism too numerous to mention, I have settled down with the Apostle John and the Chief of sinners - the Apostle Paul until the dust in thrown over my eyes. It is not that I am unwilling to read more, it is just that I prefer as did Erasmus to attend to the light of pure divine truth, no matter how frighteningly small it might be.

The Apostle Paul states, ‘If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation.’ Also that all things, be they death or life or the world to come, or angels or Cephas, or Apollos, or Paul…all things are in Christ.

In my very earliest steps as a young Christian, the Holy Spirit showed me that what I was looking for was not contained in the sublimest texts, be they even and shame that I should write it for those whose entire confidence rests on the written word of GOD, but are found in the one who is called ‘the ALL SUFFICIENT ONE’ - the Lord Jesus Christ, who indwells the innermost being of a true child of GOD.

Simply put, Jesus said, ‘Come unto me that you might have life.’ Though I tried. (please do not miss this three word construction) I tried and tried…(it is beginning to sound a little like a Beatle song), but eventually it was only when I understood that my trying was what got in the way of Him coming down from heaven, going back to Heaven, and then coming down into the hearts of those ‘who would believe’ - for there are many who will NEVER believe, for it is written of them, that their names are NOT in the Lambs book of life, the blood that was shed, was not shed for them but a testimony against them.

Simply put the religious ladder to enlightenment or some sort of mystical union with Christ is as impermanent as the clouds above our head. The only sense is that in God’s good time, by His sovereign will, He will come into the heart of a person, to regenerate them into the life, and it will be His righteouness in Him that is our only claim at the Judgment day. Nothing, nothing at all will be our declartion, NOTHING BUT CHRIST.

I might have written more but we are off to Town to get some more tiles, some were bent.
I apologize if I seem to be avoiding contributing any of my own thoughts but the Pope and others do so much better I think I would be doing you and them a disservice by trying to do anything else.
I think I will trust myself to the hope that you will after what I have said, be less inclined to hold back, when after it has been the pleasure of the Father in heaven, to let a little child lead them.

Pophead.

ps. The context of the passage mentioned in Matthew, certainly holds that we must not only love in closed group idea, for ALL men are our neighbours, not just fellow Roman Catholics, or the writers of such a group…I would defer to the simple place, make your heart the temple of only one, Christ and follow no man. For it is a faithful saying that Christ came to die for sinners. **Should one regard oneself as more than a sinner, then surely it is not for you that Christ has died. **
 
NOTICE: Please return to the topic “Is sinless perfection a Biblical philosophy” or this thread will be closed.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary
 
NOTICE: Please return to the topic “Is sinless perfection a Biblical philosophy” or this thread will be closed.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary
I apologize for the deviation and am busy compililng a more indepth reply to guanphone’s comment. I should post within two or three hours.

Sincerely,
Pophead.
 
He was using a strawman argument ? 🤷
Eph 5:25-27
as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish"

Paul seemed to think Jesus’ intention was spotless and unblemished…

So did the Apostle Jude…

Jude 24

24 Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing,"

How did they misunderstand Him?
 
“Is sinless perfection a Biblical philosophy”
PLEASE NOTE:

This thread has nothing to do about the virgin Mary.

Clarification is needed inasmuch as what I mean by a biblical definition of Sinless Perfection. In other words I am about to unpack my understanding of Sinless Perfection taking into consideration Matthew 5:48.

What is Sinless Perfection ?
Hebrews 4:15

**‘For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.’ **
There is yet another state of grace or perfection that is granted by judicial declaration to the sons and daughters of God.
Hebrews 10:14
’For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.'
This well known passage in Romans, establishes the judicial pardon and the ongoing holiness that is expected in the life of a believer.
Romans 8:1-4
**There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. **
Does this mean that once we have been judicially pardoned, we are then actually in physical time space, actually sinlessly perfect ?

My thought is that we are most definitely not. These are the passages of Scriptures that lead me to this conclusion.
Galatians 3:1-5
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Though I might have pasted more Scripture at this point, I do not want to bloat the thread and hopefully stay within the confines of the topic. So with that here is the last two passage of Scripture relative to ‘Sinless Perfection’ - in the life of a believer.
Galatians 5:13-26
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Perhaps one of the biggest mistakes made in understanding the Christian life, is that when the word perfection in Scripture is used in relation to a believer, it infact means maturity, and for that one last passage ends my own presentation.
Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
It is my personal observation that those who are granted titles by men, happily relinquish them and prefer to be buried in nameless graves.

Pophead.
 
Dear Friends,

Just one last batch. (I promise this is it.)
2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Colossians 2:10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Note:
Not, ye are made full in Him, but ye are in Him, made full. In Him dwells the fullness; being in Him, ye are filled.
There is the sense of the deposit of His Spirit in us and that we have eternal life, that we are then sharing in what He has, but we still carry with us the imperfection of our flesh, wherein we must put off daily, where we must take up our cross daily, after denying ourselves and follow Christ daily.

Clearly if we decide to ourselves that we should no longer take up our cross; we will be in violation of the Master’s command to stay under the cross, the only tool sharp enough to stay the corruptive influences of the sin that so easily besets us which we are told to lay aside.
Hebrews 12:1-8
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Here follows the final passage I want to share, as I have certainly contributed more than enough. May His Word find you enlightened and blessed in Christ, Pophead.
Gal 2:17-21
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 
Pophead,

I am not going to give you chapters and verses to prove a point, rather, I would like to offer a few comments for your reflection.

First, I think there is always a danger of taking a particular verse and reflecting on that verse and that verse alone, in this case Matthew 5:48. Yes we are called to become perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect, however, if your read all of Matthew 5 as well as the rest of his gospel and the other gospels isn’t one of the lessons revealed to us that our striving for perfection a life long process?

I read that you took inspiration from the life of Paul, but do not all his letters also reveal something about our human nature, namely, it is far from perfect and our road to perfection is never straight or without struggle and failure?

You wrote that this thread was not about Mary however to leave her out I think would be a great mistake. I say this because of her example as we find in the gospels. If anyone us creatures could ever be said to be sinless perfection it is she - as Our Holy Father has written so ofter she was not open to hearingthe Word of God, she took the Word of God into her very being and it became Flesh Amoung Us in the Incarnation. However, if you study the gospels she too had to constantly grow in her understanding of her self and her role as Mother. Her response was a perfect “yes” but she still had to grow in the full understanding of this “Yes”. So I think again, as part of my answer to your question is to study the life of Mary (again I urge all to study Pope Benedict’s work “Daughter of Zion”).

There is another point you made that struck me, the point about “seedless grapes” but if you will forgive me I want to make one other point before I come to that.

The other point is this, if we study all of scripture - Old and New Testaments - it becomes very clear tha God uses those who are far from perfect and even after their encounter with God continue to be very human. Think of Abraham, Moses and the prophets and of coarse David. All men you despite having a personal relationship with God were far from perfect. Perhaps the Apostle that would be the best to study is Peter. All through out the four gospels (especially Mark) and Galatians we find Peter’s struggle to become perfect but we never read that he actually did become perfect, at least in this life.
 
Pophead,

I am not going to give you chapters and verses to prove a point, rather, I would like to offer a few comments for your reflection.

First, I think there is always a danger of taking a particular verse and reflecting on that verse and that verse alone, in this case Matthew 5:48. Yes we are called to become perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect, however, if your read all of Matthew 5 as well as the rest of his gospel and the other gospels isn’t one of the lessons revealed to us that our striving for perfection a life long process?

I read that you took inspiration from the life of Paul, but do not all his letters also reveal something about our human nature, namely, it is far from perfect and our road to perfection is never straight or without struggle and failure?
2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Ummm…some good points TOME.

However, as long as we are His children we are looking forward to the redemption of our bodies and though we may enjoy the benefits of being seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus we are continually reminded that without the redemption of our bodies we are still groaning within for that redemption.

Till we have faces. (a good book by C.S. Lewis)

Pophead.
👍

ps. I have no more to contribute to this thread.
 
Perhaps one of the biggest mistakes made in understanding the Christian life, is that when the word perfection in Scripture is used in relation to a believer, it infact means maturity, and for that one last passage ends my own presentation.
What are you basing this statement on?
 
Pophead,

This may be moving off the topic but hopefully it is not. Here I would like to bring up the belief in Purgatory. Too often we consider Purgatory as a state of temporary hell but I think the Catechism brings out the point that it is just the opposite. It is that state where our final perfection does take place. This doesn’t mean it is not with out suffering - it’s the greatest suffering we, as humans, face is dying to our selves with the realization that we are God’s creatures and not god? And don’t we all suffer when we encounter a love that is greater than our own? But I think as common sense tells us we will never reach perfection in this life but if God is the Loving Father I hope we all believe He is, then he will not abandon us if we haven’t reach perfection in love, which is the perfection Christ is talking about in Matthew 5: 48, but will bring us to perfection through during this state of Purgatory. Again, I would like to refer you Pope Benedict’s work “Introduction to Christianity” especially where he writes of the forgivess of sin and the “Resurrection of the Dead”.

I think a thought that we should always keep in mind is God is always aware that we are human, we are creatures who are not perfect but is always there in our struggle to perfect ourselves. Isn’t this that main revelational of the parables found in Luke 15?

One final thought about “Seedless grapes”. For me this concept is the furtherest thing form the gospel message because doesn’t Christ throughout the gospels speak of the seed or grain that must die inorder to bear much fruit? There is nothing seedless about the perfection all Christians must strive to acheive, knowing, however, that it is impossible to acheive without the Holy Spirit.
 
Pophead,

This may be moving off the topic but hopefully it is not. Here I would like to bring up the belief in Purgatory. Too often we consider Purgatory as a state of temporary hell but I think the Catechism brings out the point that it is just the opposite. It is that state where our final perfection does take place. This doesn’t mean it is not with out suffering - it’s the greatest suffering we, as humans, face is dying to our selves with the realization that we are God’s creatures and not god? And don’t we all suffer when we encounter a love that is greater than our own? But I think as common sense tells us we will never reach perfection in this life but if God is the Loving Father I hope we all believe He is, then he will not abandon us if we haven’t reach perfection in love, which is the perfection Christ is talking about in Matthew 5: 48, but will bring us to perfection through during this state of Purgatory.
Hi TOME,
I am not going to beat about the bush. Purgatory is not off topic, it is the idea of perfecting of the saints in the afterlife. Dante’s poem certainly explores this idea, and certainly Ancient Egyptian and Ancient Greek ideas about the afterlife, have similar ideas about what transpires after death, or rather in the afterlife. I do find them most fascinating and intriguing, however they do not coincide with what has already been revealed in the Scriptures.

The saints have been given eternal life, so there is no second death and the physical death has had the sting taken out of it. The saints look forward to putting off this body of death and being clothed with the new one made in the image of God.

This heavenly Father knows the number of every hair upon every head, and if I may - He knows our Dna and details about us that we could never possibly know, though we were to live a million years.

It is not so with those whom the Father will judge and cast into the lake of fire. For it to be said of us that God never knew us, would mean an absolute disinterest far beyond the most horrific comparison of any lack of fondness or indifference that can be known in our experience as humans. To put it in as loving a way as I know is humanly possible and yet to be understood. As faithful as He is to those who are His, never once leaving their side but always closer than a brother, this love not being present in this life or the life to come, would mean the equivalent of such a person having not even been born. The fact that they traverse this sod, and enjoy the benefits or physical life and even love and emotion and prosperity and even sickness and death, are almost equivalent to as shadow, but a shadow is connected to something real.

As eternal life means something most wonderful and is not even remotely concerned about death now, or death in any world, or time. The opposite is true, eternal death fears physical death and has no assurance or even a life beyond this one. Being doubly dead and yet still living in a body, is to never have really lived at all. Scripture leads us to understand that though He has great tenderness and effection towards His children, but not to the children of wrath, who it is written the Lord is angry every day. They have no interest in the kindness and mercy of God and neither do they cast themselves upon such, but despise the kindness of God preferring to be independant.

Lastly, to encounter the Saviour when all that seperates us is nothing more than a mist, and to know that you are known to Him as His, and property of no other - is a gift most rare. To however, only know a sky of brass, does not mean that one is neccessarily trapped in eternal death, for many do not pray as they aught, or even know what prayer is that transports one into the presense of the tender Lord. It is instead those who never so much as desire concourse with their Creator, who reject what is revealed in Creation, or even in their own consciences that are given over. (As Scripture clearly reveals) Though we are in no position to judge them for their coldness to the Lord, they will have been chosen for this end, and we cannot even question the Lord for this decision. It is one that he bore with tears, and greatest pain before the judges of the earth, and upon the cursed cross of wood.

These are those who harden their hearts and have no desire for any tenderness towards the Almighty. They neither fear or reverance and will only be satisfied when their independance is complete. They neither desire or thirst after pureness of heart, or righteousness and therefore cannot be filled, not here or in the life to come. This is how I understand the Scriptures and the tenderness of Christ.

Cont…(in next comment)
 
Again, I would like to refer you Pope Benedict’s work “Introduction to Christianity” especially where he writes of the forgivess of sin and the “Resurrection of the Dead”.
To put this as gently as I may. I have many books and read many books in my desire to understand what transpires in the afterlife. One day I received a rather simple green card in the mail box, it had childlike writing. All it said was, ‘Many books inform, but only God’s word can transform.’ I still do read the words of men, and even very inspired men, but I only allow my heart to be rent by the words of the Almighty. This would obviously lead us to the matter of whether or not the Scriptures can declare us judicially perfect and mature enough to need no further purging should we be called from this world to the next.
I think a thought that we should always keep in mind is God is always aware that we are human, we are creatures who are not perfect but is always there in our struggle to perfect ourselves. Isn’t this that main revelational of the parables found in Luke 15?
This is true for some, but not for all. Some will find themselves on the wrong side of the fire. What do I mean by fire ? Actually this idea of fire has helped me greatly in understanding God and accepting the idea that some will never enjoy eternal life. Everyone will be salted with fire. Those who have eternal life, will endure in the light, those who have eternal death, will endure in the darkness.

The two are seperate from the beginning, it is God’s word.

Love,
Pophead.
 
One final thought about “Seedless grapes”. For me this concept is the furtherest thing form the gospel message because doesn’t Christ throughout the gospels speak of the seed or grain that must die inorder to bear much fruit? There is nothing seedless about the perfection all Christians must strive to acheive, knowing, however, that it is impossible to acheive without the Holy Spirit.
Finally TOME,

Your are absolutely correct in your conclusion. Seedless grapes are sterile without the seed of eternal life. Real Christians are not perfect, they are forgiven and loved unconditionally by the Lord Jesus. The innermost being is filled with the perfect Spirit of Christ, is this unity that allows us to feel as if we were prefect, but it is Him who is perfect. Only because we have been grafted into the vine, whose initial seed died (physical) and the resurrection life….you know the rest.

Love,
Pophead.
 
What are you basing this statement on?
Hello rlg94086,

I did say my own presentation, so let me then further explain my thoughts and include the passage of Scripture, in the hope of clarity. This is after all a most difficult subject to explain from reason alone. We are so dependant upon the Scriptures for light. Excuse my indulgence, but this is the best that I can do with my current imperfections. 🙂

Perhaps I should have explained what I understand by the word ‘mature’. The idea of *moral excellence *is in mind, and though we do indeed **‘press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus’, ** we of ourselves cannot achieve sinless perfection, for we must indeed die to the ‘I’, for it is Christ who is our life, who is this perfection that might bring us to where He was, when He said that it is not I but the Father who does the works, and words.’

**Galatians 2:20 **- Is certainly something Paul had in mind when He said He was ready to leave having run the race.

Perhaps this passage alone contains the seed thought that grants the final step to sinless perfection, or being as Christ. I am not thinking Thomas A. Kempis and Norman Grubb…no, I am thinking Christ, not even Paul.

Inspired by the Holy Spirit, this is the Scripture that I believe contains the seed thought, pointing away from our sinless perfection, to the genuine sinless perfection which is Christ in us, as Paul writes, the hope of glory.

Excuse the muddle, these ideas do have the habit of falling on top of one rather definitely as the Ides of March approaches. (or death of Caesar - I mean my ego god.)

Sorry, the third time, here is the Scripture.
Galatains 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
😉
Pophead.
 
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